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#81 ·
Honestly I'm mystified by the broad brush charges of abuse. Ted doesn't need me to stand up for him as he is obviously quite capable. I run the same circuit as Ted and I can echo everything that Ted has said. I see hard working 9-5 folks trying to compete and also against the folks who are retired and/or have the means and money to be relevant. It is highly competitive but that is why we do this. To qualify what an Amateur is, as Dr. Ed says, is just nuts. More power to the Amateurs who have the money, time and space to excel in this sport. One day I hope to retire and do more training. Does that make me a Pro (Am)??? I'm certainly not an expert dog trainer and welcome the help and input on how to be better. I've been embraced by folks like Ted, who even give me advice while running a test. I've run, judged AA stakes and don't see the issues your eluding to.
 
#82 · (Edited)
This is what Alex and I did yesterday while this debate contined to rage. Sorry Jeff, I take hunting season off to hunt my dog, that's the reason I got into training in the first place and I think it's good to keep that perspective.
Image


Now, back to the debate. It seems there are two separate issues here, 1) should there be different classifications of amateurs to separate the 8-5 working guys who train after work, during breaks, evenings and weekends with a small amateur training group from the retired "semi-pro" amateur who devotes his and her whole life to the sport. Plus some are advocating we punish the group I belong to, who still works and so utilizes a pro to train and run their dog, especially durring the winter and early spring when it is cold, frozen and snow covered up here. 2) The issue some have brought up where an amateur runs a pro's truck in the amateur or co-owns a dog just to get around the OH rule.

Last first, I agree with Ted, other than one incident ten years ago where a very nice amateur we all know tried to help a friend she trained with occasionally, by running his dogs off their mutual pro's truck, when the friend had a last minute family emergency and couldn't make the trial, that was the only time I have ever seen that. Man you should have heard the hue and cry about it. As John Fallon pointed out, there must have been a time when it did happen, hence the OH rule, and this may be one of those regional things, but the circuit I run (Northern Rocky - NW for lack of a better definition), overlaps with Ted's curcuit on the east and Happy's curcuit on the west, I really haven't seen it here. Also I can see Ted getting upset as he was basically being called a liar, those are beyond fighting words in Montana, sounds like Texas is the same.

As far as different levels of amateurs, I think that is crazy talk. We all (I expect) want to beat the best at the top of their game. In reality this sport is a great equalizer. My wife is a chemical engineer and she went to work right out of college for Bechtel Engineering in San Francisco back in the late seventies. She and her fellow engineers thought Steve Bechtel was second only to God. Now thirty years later she has occasional contact with old coworkers for one reason or another, and she delights in surprising them by telling them we sit in the gallery and have conversations with Steve Bechtel who puts his pants on the same way we do and who's dog's occasionally blow him off by refusing that cast to get off the last point on a water blind just like our's do.

If you run this sport long and often you see folks who are successfull year after year with generation after generation of dogs. These people have for years been dedicated, good trainers and handlers, have a program that obviously works for them, travel a lot, learn and evolve, compare notes and techniques with other serious amateurs, but most of all are the same driven over-achievers that succeed in any walk of life, sport or business. Those are the guys I want to be. Those are the guys I feel best beating. Please don't take that opportunity away from my by looping me with the under achievers, who don't feel it's fair to have to compete against these "semi-pros".

John

Oh, I forgot to mention that Cheryl got Alex certified as a therapy dog last year and she has been taking him into our local nursing home where he is much fussed over. I went with them today after we washed the mud off from yesterday's hunt. These really are special animals.
 
#83 ·
John Robinson said:
Also I can see Ted getting upset as he was basically being called a liar, those are beyond fighting words in Montana, sounds like Texas is the same.
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Actually, John it's Colorado, not Texas. But, you got the sentiment right.
 
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#84 ·
John Robinson said:
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Where are the Honkers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also I can see Ted getting upset as he was basically being called a liar, those are beyond fighting words in Montana, sounds like Texas is the same.
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A little sensitive? We disagreed with him based on what we know & see. No one called him a liar, but because of those who defended him, you can question the motive.

Again. as I posted to Gooser, Ted was Out of Line with his post to 2tall.


Oh, I forgot to mention that Cheryl got Alex certified as a therapy dog last year and she has been taking him into our local nursing home where he is much fussed over. I went with them today after we washed the mud off from yesterday's hunt. These really are special animals.
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Good for Cheryl :) :) :) .
 
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#85 ·
John Robinson said:
This is what Alex and I did yesterday while this debate contined to rage. Sorry Jeff, I take hunting season off to hunt my dog, that's the reason I got into training in the first place and I think it's good to keep that perspective.
Image


Now, back to the debate. It seems there are two separate issues here, 1) should there be different classifications of amateurs to separate the 8-5 working guys who train after work, during breaks, evenings and weekends with a small amateur training group from the retired "semi-pro" amateur who devotes his and her whole life to the sport. Plus some are advocating we punish the group I belong to, who still works and so utilizes a pro to train and run their dog, especially durring the winter and early spring when it is cold, frozen and snow covered up here. 2) The issue some have brought up where an amateur runs a pro's truck in the amateur or co-owns a dog just to get around the OH rule.

Last first, I agree with Ted, other than one incident ten years ago where a very nice amateur we all know tried to help a friend she trained with occasionally, by running his dogs off their mutual pro's truck, when the friend had a last minute family emergency and couldn't make the trial, that was the only time I have ever seen that. Man you should have heard the hue and cry about it. As John Fallon pointed out, there must have been a time when it did happen, hence the OH rule, and this may be one of those regional things, but the circuit I run (Northern Rocky - NW for lack of a better definition), overlaps with Ted's curcuit on the east and Happy's curcuit on the west, I really haven't seen it here. Also I can see Ted getting upset as he was basically being called a liar, those are beyond fighting words in Montana, sounds like Texas is the same.

As far as different levels of amateurs, I think that is crazy talk. We all (I expect) want to beat the best at the top of their game. In reality this sport is a great equalizer. My wife is a chemical engineer and she went to work right out of college for Bechtel Engineering in San Francisco back in the late seventies. She and her fellow engineers thought Steve Bechtel was second only to God. Now thirty years later she has occasional contact with old coworkers for one reason or another, and she delights in surprising them by telling them we sit in the gallery and have conversations with Steve Bechtel who puts his pants on the same way we do and who's dog's occasionally blow him off by refusing that cast to get off the last point on a water blind just like our's do.

If you run this sport long and often you see folks who are successfull year after year with generation after generation of dogs. These people have for years been dedicated, good trainers and handlers, have a program that obviously works for them, travel a lot, learn and evolve, compare notes and techniques with other serious amateurs, but most of all are the same driven over-achievers that succeed in any walk of life, sport or business. Those are the guys I want to be. Those are the guys I feel best beating. Please don't take that opportunity away from my by looping me with the under achievers, who don't feel it's fair to have to compete against these "semi-pros".

John

Oh, I forgot to mention that Cheryl got Alex certified as a therapy dog last year and she has been taking him into our local nursing home where he is much fussed over. I went with them today after we washed the mud off from yesterday's hunt. These really are special animals.
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John we trained Saturday.and hunted today no pretty picture of ducks and geese because Ro was the only one to shoot anything and we lost it with our highly trained retrievers
He landed in big water and was gone
Nice picture we probably would of made. The retrieve with Alex
Happy hunten. And hunting. Is the reason we do this to
Happy hunten maybe we will see you in. Spring
 
#86 ·
All this time wasted when you could have been training your dog or out hunting with your dog. Now I see why you feel you need the rules changed. Just not enough time to train dogs and to post on RTF.
Since my last post I did the following with my dogs

  1. Friday took 2 dogs hunting and had a blast
    Saturday trained dogs getting ready for the spring trial season.
    Sunday trained dogs getting ready for the spring trial season.
Winners Train Losers Complain
 
#87 ·
Jeff Bartlett said:
John we trained Saturday.and hunted today no pretty picture of ducks and geese because Ro was the only one to shoot anything and we lost it with our highly trained retrievers
He landed in big water and was gone
Nice picture we probably would of made. The retrieve with Alex
Happy hunten. And hunting. Is the reason we do this to
Happy hunten maybe we will see you in. Spring
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Hi Jeff,
Good hunting to you as well. I'm sure we'll see you at some trials in the spring.
John
 
#89 ·
Marvin S said:
Where are the Honkers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A little sensitive? We disagreed with him based on what we know & see. No one called him a liar, but because of those who defended him, you can question the motive.

Again. as I posted to Gooser, Ted was Out of Line with his post to 2tall.




Good for Cheryl :) :) :) .
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No Honkers yesterday Marvin, but a flight of seven Tundra Swans flew right over us at about ten yards. Those birds are huge!

John
 
Discussion starter · #90 ·
6 on the ground and at least 7 misses. Great day in Fall City but I was shooting like crap and the hawks lost but freebie box seats on the 40 yard line after goose hunting was great! Back to the grind tomorrow am.
 
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#91 ·
Boy what a great discussion. I haven’t run a field trial for years, but believe it or not, we have the same kinds of problems at our golf course. I play 2 or 3 times a week, and I try really hard. I maybe could play or practice more often, but with my schedule and everything else going on, it’s too “difficult”.
The problem is, there are these guys who play almost everyday. On the days they don’t actually play a round, they spend time on the driving range. A few have even been caught paying a pro to give them lessons and tips on how to improve their game even more. Apparently they have unlimited funds as they also travel to other golf courses and play those. And don’t get me started on the school teachers who are members; they play a lot more than me during the summer. Maybe some of this other stuff should be taken into consideration; I don’t know, maybe there could be separate golf tournaments or handicap systems for those of us who can’t really spend as much time golfing as these other guys. Why should I have to compete against all this “unfairness”? What do you think?
 
#92 ·
minnducker said:
Boy what a great discussion. I haven’t run a field trial for years, but believe it or not, we have the same kinds of problems at our golf course. I play 2 or 3 times a week, and I try really hard. I maybe could play or practice more often, but with my schedule and everything else going on, it’s too “difficult”.
The problem is, there are these guys who play almost everyday. On the days they don’t actually play a round, they spend time on the driving range. A few have even been caught paying a pro to give them lessons and tips on how to improve their game even more. Apparently they have unlimited funds as they also travel to other golf courses and play those. And don’t get me started on the school teachers who are members; they play a lot more than me during the summer. Maybe some of this other stuff should be taken into consideration; I don’t know, maybe there could be separate golf tournaments or handicap systems for those of us who can’t really spend as much time golfing as these other guys. Why should I have to compete against all this “unfairness”? What do you think?
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I think it stinks. :)

Which would you handicap.....the dog or the handler? I've always felt it was the dog's "job" to mark the birds and do the work. As a handler, I am there to "assist" the dog if he gets in trouble or to help with setting him up properly on marks (which is "of primary importance"). On blinds, it's a team effort, but, personally, I still feel that the dog has the most responsibility on a blind.....to follow commands/casts, carry the cast and come up with the bird.

JMHO
 
#93 ·
minnducker said:
Boy what a great discussion. I haven’t run a field trial for years, but believe it or not, we have the same kinds of problems at our golf course. I play 2 or 3 times a week, and I try really hard. I maybe could play or practice more often, but with my schedule and everything else going on, it’s too “difficult”.
The problem is, there are these guys who play almost everyday. On the days they don’t actually play a round, they spend time on the driving range. A few have even been caught paying a pro to give them lessons and tips on how to improve their game even more. Apparently they have unlimited funds as they also travel to other golf courses and play those. And don’t get me started on the school teachers who are members; they play a lot more than me during the summer. Maybe some of this other stuff should be taken into consideration; I don’t know, maybe there could be separate golf tournaments or handicap systems for those of us who can’t really spend as much time golfing as these other guys. Why should I have to compete against all this “unfairness”? What do you think?
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;) Very funny and nice way to put it in perspective...
 
Discussion starter · #94 ·
John Robinson said:
;) Very funny and nice way to put it in perspective...
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I could see the analogy if every time you played it was a tournament and you we trying to win and go to an invitational at the end of the year with more on the line than a cocktail and cigar at the end of each day.
 
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#95 ·
Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:
I could see the analogy if every time you played it was a tournament and you we trying to win and go to an invitational at the end of the year with more on the line than a cocktail and cigar at the end of each day.
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Yeah, if you qualify for a National, and you are not a professional,

- You get to make no money for two weeks
- You get to spend money for two weeks on room, food, travel, and birds

And, at the end of the two weeks, if you and your dog are VERY GOOD and lucky, and manage to win the whole deal, you get you both get your name engraved on a silver trophy (which you don't get to keep), a blue ribbon, your photograph taken, and some dog food for the year. What a deal!

And if you aren't very good and lucky, and you don't win, you don't get the engraving, ribbon, photograph or dog food. What a deal!

Oh, and I forgot, if you win, you get to host - and pay for - an open bar celebration.

Cocktail and cigar sound after a golf tournament sound pretty good to me.

Anybody that thinks that people do this for the money are either ignorant or insane.

 
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#96 ·
Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:
I could see the analogy if every time you played it was a tournament and you we trying to win and go to an invitational at the end of the year with more on the line than a cocktail and cigar at the end of each day.
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What is your motive here? Seriously. I don't know if you even run trials. Do you? If not, why are you so concerned about "the system" under which those that do run them? :confused:

As has been stated, those that run trials find no need to change the way it stands. You do understand how this is making you look, right?
 
Discussion starter · #97 ·
So Ted, are you saying golf is a more or less competitve sport than trials?
 
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Discussion starter · #98 · (Edited)
Melanie Foster said:
What is your motive here? Seriously. I don't know if you even run trials. Do you? If not, why are you so concerned about "the system" under which those that do run them? :confused:

As has been stated, those that run trials find no need to change the way it stands. You do understand how this is making you look, right?
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Not sure exactly what you mean but I thought this could be an inters
Esting discussion and as I said in my first post, I have no MERIT in making the mention. Obviously, some people are up tight and very defensive which I don't understand but I am trying. I have not said or stood on a box shouting anything needs to be changed. It was a question and a simple "not a good idea because...." Would have sufficed. Some took this as a personal attack and I think that is a pretty silly soap box to stand on. I can't comment on how you think I look because I ask a question or throw out an idea rediculous as it may have been?

I'm not "concerned", more curious. As I said earlier, I've run two derbies and went out quickly. I credit that to myself nothing more nothing less. That experience has NOTHING to do with bringing up a topic for discussion. Replies like yours insinuate I'm stirring some imaginary pot. Obviously, Ted is pissed off I've made a suggestion or opened a discussion on this topic.

Is there something about this topic which people feel is a personal attack or aimed at a person or person which I'm attempting to do something deviant? if so, someone send me a pm and I'll delete the thread if you think it is personally pointed at someone.
 
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Discussion starter · #99 ·
Ted Shih said:
Yeah, if you qualify for a National, and you are not a professional,

- You get to make no money for two weeks
- You get to spend money for two weeks on room, food, travel, and birds

And, at the end of the two weeks, if you and your dog are VERY GOOD and lucky, and manage to win the whole deal, you get you both get your name engraved on a silver trophy (which you don't get to keep), a blue ribbon, your photograph taken, and some dog food for the year. What a deal!

And if you aren't very good and lucky, and you don't win, you don't get the engraving, ribbon, photograph or dog food. What a deal!

Oh, and I forgot, if you win, you get to host - and pay for - an open bar celebration.

Cocktail and cigar sound after a golf tournament sound pretty good to me.

Anybody that thinks that people do this for the money are either ignorant or insane.
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I think bragging rights are worth quite a bit :) you can't buy those! seriously Ted, I'm enjoying most of the dialog and I wish it hadn't gone a little sideways. I see your point and that was all I've was looking for. I've seen posts on here get less grief when people come out and say, "this needs to be changed because....."

I thought I worded my question "soft" enough that it would come across as more of a question which elicited some answers versus "attacks".
 
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Discussion starter · #100 ·
I'll edit a few things here......see if bold works....

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:
I've pondered this before; I have no merit in suggesting this and have nothing more than an idea in the back of my head regarding this suggestion. I thought it might be a good discussion or, maybe its a stupid suggestion to make and someone will shoot a hole in my suggestion?

We all know of "Amateurs" (I'm talking Field Trials)who probably don't have a normal job if one at all, train multiple times a week with a pro(or, train with the pro and dogs stay with the pro), have multiple dogs, breed multiple litters a year, are basically "on the circuit" yet, still maintain Amateur status? Why not come up with a simple formula that puts a few more restraints on those who are running as Amateurs to even the playing field with those who by all definition, are "real" Amateurs?

Say, if a person runs X amount of trials per year and has X amount of dogs, then they can only run X amount of trials as "Amateurs".

Maybe not take away the ability to run Am status but, at minimum, limit it? Most Am's I know might run 8-12 trials a year at most. The Am's I'd suggest limiting are ones who will run all over a large territory and run multiple stakes, multiple dogs and have a truckload of other peoples dogs they may be "running/handling" for them?

This is where I have an Amateur disconnect?
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I sort of feel like nobody read this for being a suggestion and now I'm trying to re-write rule books, trying to change field trials, I am a have not who is jealous of others, etc., etc., etc,

I'm not trying to change anything. Again, I thought it might be a good, "discussion".

I did ask people to put holes in my thought and I did say that it was "maybe a stupid suggestion".
 
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