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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I am following the smartwork system and I am currently working on obedience.
What purpose does pressure condition the dog to here serve? I looked over the smartwork volume 1 and it does no even address this in the book.
 
There is more than one way to look at the use of pressure. The common one is to proof the command. I believe that Evan uses it on recall as his introduction to pressure, but I will let him answer that for himself.
I think I like Don Remein's explanation of using pressure about as well as anyones.
5 step learning process:
#1 you show the dog the desired behavior
#2 dog completes the behavior with stress (pressure)
#3 dog completes the behavior without stress (pressure)
#4 dog completes the behavior with praise
#5 dog completes the behavior without praise or stress
(pressure on-pressure off, praise on-praise off)
Note the application of pressure is not related to the dog performing the task properly or not. It is used to create stress, not to punish.
 
You mean this one? Just happen to have it saved to my library.
by Jerry Harris on the Retriever Training Forum.

“You send your teenage son to the mailbox. On the way he spots the neighbor’s voluptuous daughter in a bikini (factor). He immediately starts in her direction (succumbing to the factor).

You yell (whistle) Son!!!!!! (Handle). His eyes get back into focus and turns toward you and says “WHAT??” (responding to the whistle) For the Amish folks, you walk up to him and whop him upside the head!!! (correction=indirect pressure). You then say ‘You were told to go get the mail, now do what you were told!!!’

That my friends is Indirect Pressure and why it works.”
 
There is more than one way to look at the use of pressure. The common one is to proof the command. I believe that Evan uses it on recall as his introduction to pressure, but I will let him answer that for himself.
I think I like Don Remein's explanation of using pressure about as well as anyones.
5 step learning process:
#1 you show the dog the desired behavior
#2 dog completes the behavior with stress (pressure)
#3 dog completes the behavior without stress (pressure)
#4 dog completes the behavior with praise
#5 dog completes the behavior without praise or stress
(pressure on-pressure off, praise on-praise off)
Note the application of pressure is not related to the dog performing the task properly or not. It is used to create stress, not to punish.
I'm not familiar with Don Remein. Is it possible that you have step #2 and step #3 backwards?

Snick
 
I'm not familiar with Don Remein. Is it possible that you have step #2 and step #3 backwards?

Snick
You might want to check to see who trained "Ebanstar Lean Mac" to his first national title.
And NO, that is the sequence directly from his "Basics Plus" training manual.

Might also note that his material states "Do not correct for mistakes. Correct for lack of effort in performing taught tasks. This encourages good decisions."
So don't punish -- teach instead. Pressure is a teaching tool to be used wisely and fairly, not a ball bat to beat the dog into submission.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Here is what made me ask this question. This is my first time training a dog and I am having a hard time reading my dog, I know it comes with experince like all things. And here is where I am confused.

In Smartwork for Retrievers volume one; Basics and Transition it states that you go up the power level until you read that you have begun to reach to much. It does not give you any example other than to read your dog. I got the video and it shows Evan going up the power scale until a dog lets out a big yelp than he goes back down. I use a dogtra collar and I got to 60 before he let out a big yelp so i started to back down and do the restiant. Than I ended the session with the 3 good dogs. I've noticed that max's recall has gotten a little bit better. I can call him with here and about 3/10 times he will come. The other 7 times I give him a nick at what is his working level.( I started low and worked my way up until It gets his attenition. It is a level 30 on my dogtra.) The last couple days his recall has gotten sloppy as in I will call him and he will either; 1) take his sweet old time occisionaly stop and smell something so I command here and nick him or 2) he will come running to me but he will once he gets to about 5 feet of me he verves off and starts sniffing things again. So I nick him again and say here. Some times it takes a couple nicks to get him to me.

Thinking about what I just said tells me that I need to go back and do the rope drill with him.

The two questions that I have are, 1) do I need to do the pressure conditioning again.( work my way up to 60 than down and add restaint each time?) 2) It seems like I am having to use so much pressure on this stubborn dog, and because of that I am afraid that I'm afraid i'm going to take his drive away and he will ended up slinking around because he is afraid.
I also know that he knows the command because if I happen to have a treat in my hand he will focus on me to get it. He will come running and will sit patiently by me.
 
One idea that you are trying to convey to the dog is that the collar and the long lead mean the same thing, and the dog is not making this connection yet.
You might try some ole negative reinforcement to help resolve the issue. Attach the long lead to the e-collar, and switch the collar to continues. Start a low to moderate correction before giving the command. Give the command and a tug on the lead, and then stop the collar correction the moment the dog starts to move toward you. Then with the long lead make sure that the dog comes all the way to you.
 
Here is what made me ask this question. This is my first time training a dog and I am having a hard time reading my dog, I know it comes with experince like all things. And here is where I am confused.

In Smartwork for Retrievers volume one; Basics and Transition it states that you go up the power level until you read that you have begun to reach to much.....

The two questions that I have are,

1) do I need to do the pressure conditioning again.( work my way up to 60 than down and add restaint each time?)

2) It seems like I am having to use so much pressure on this stubborn dog, and because of that I am afraid that I'm afraid i'm going to take his drive away and he will ended up slinking around because he is afraid.
I also know that he knows the command because if I happen to have a treat in my hand he will focus on me to get it. He will come running and will sit patiently by me.
Rather than pluck chapter and verse, which would take too much space, I'll just try to break this down a bit before the topic gets overly blurred. For every directive there is rationale. You have objectives for conditioning to pressure that you don't appear to understand, so let's start there.

Each dog has its own threshold; its tolerance for pressure and still function in a stable, reliable manner. When you're starting out you don't know what that is with any given dog. But if you desire to end up with a trained dog that will function with a high degree of reliability, even when they are distracted, or when they feel overwhelmemed by any sort of pressure, you will need to condition them to do so.

Also, by going through the pressure conditioning process you find two important things that will help you work effectively with your dog, and not worry that you are applying too much pressure routinely. One is finding the dog's threshold, so you know roughly what level is going to be so high that it will destabilize the dog. There isn't anything constructive about overwhelming the dog with pressure. But you do want to be able to bring the heat in those hopefully rare moments when a defiant dog has dug in his heels on an issue.

The other benefit gained through this conditioning process is determining the dogs normal operating level. That is nearly always far below the dog's threshold, but is an amount the dog consistently notices, and is ample to cause the change in behavior you were seeking. That brings us to a review of the chief reason for using pressure at all; to change behavior.

The reason there is no formula for reading your dog in any book, or on any video is that there can't be. Each dog is individual, and has its own reads. I provide general guidelines in both sources. But, generally, what you're looking for at threshold is that this amount of pressure is preceived by this dog as too great to remain stable and function properly in resonse to command. That level of pressure will hopefully not every be reached again for that dog, and you can make your corrections and perform forcing at a much lower level. But those levels will be different for each dog.

Does that help at all?

Evan
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Rather than pluck chapter and verse, which would take too much space, I'll just try to break this down a bit before the topic gets overly blurred. For every directive there is rationale. You have objectives for conditioning to pressure that you don't appear to understand, so let's start there.

Each dog has its own threshold; its tolerance for pressure and still function in a stable, reliable manner. When you're starting out you don't know what that is with any given dog. But if you desire to end up with a trained dog that will function with a high degree of reliability, even when they are distracted, or when they feel overwhelmemed by any sort of pressure, you will need to condition them to do so.

Also, by going through the pressure conditioning process you find two important things that will help you work effectively with your dog, and not worry that you are applying too much pressure routinely. One is finding the dog's threshold, so you know roughly what level is going to be so high that it will destabilize the dog. There isn't anything constructive about overwhelming the dog with pressure. But you do want to be able to bring the heat in those hopefully rare moments when a defiant dog has dug in his heels on an issue.

The other benefit gained through this conditioning process is determining the dogs normal operating level. That is nearly always far below the dog's threshold, but is an amount the dog consistently notices, and is ample to cause the change in behavior you were seeking. That brings us to a review of the chief reason for using pressure at all; to change behavior.

The reason there is no formula for reading your dog in any book, or on any video is that there can't be. Each dog is individual, and has its own reads. I provide general guidelines in both sources. But, generally, what you're looking for at threshold is that this amount of pressure is preceived by this dog as too great to remain stable and function properly in resonse to command. That level of pressure will hopefully not every be reached again for that dog, and you can make your corrections and perform forcing at a much lower level. But those levels will be different for each dog.

Does that help at all?

Evan
Yes it does. Thank you Evan.
 
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