HRC Point System

Jim Stevenson · Mar 3, 2011

Right now, I'm of the opinion that getting 15 points for a Finished pass and only 40 points for a Grand pass is absolutely ridiculous. At the very least, a dog should get 60 for a Grand.

Am I missing something? Can anyone explain the rationale behind this?

Socks · Mar 3, 2011

Doesn't it take two Grand passes for the title? As for the points I think it would only matter if point totals were important to you. It's not to me, but then again I don't think I could ever pass a Grand.

HuntinDawg · Mar 3, 2011

I don't know what the rationale was in establishing 40 points for a grand pass (the other point values were already established previously), but you are definitely getting all twisted up about nothing.

The only possible scenario in which it would matter if a grand pass was worth more points is in going for the 500 point club, 1,000 point club, etc.

I'm bored, so I'll break it down for you:

1) A dog must be a HRCH to enter the grand, so all dogs getting a grand pass have a minimum of 100 points prior to their grand pass.
2) GRHRCH requires 2 grand passes and 200 points. Since a dog must have 100 points to enter the grand then a dog with 2 grand passes would have a minimum of 180 points. I seriously doubt there has ever been a dog with 2 grand passes and less than 200 total points, but it could happen. The point remains that almost all dogs that earn their GRHRCH do so immediately upon their second grand pass because they are already sitting at 160+ points prior to the second grand pass.
3) You must have the 2 grand passes to get the GRHRCH, it doesn't matter if the dog has 5,000 points if they don't have the 2 grand passes they are not a GRHRCH. From that standpoint the grand pass (especially the second one) is absolutely priceless within the HRC program. There is NOTHING that can replace the second grand pass. No amount of 15 pt. Finished passes could ever eclipse the significance of the second grand pass.
4) Even if for some weird reason you never ran your dog in a Finished or Upland test after getting the HRCH and then got your 80 points for 2 grand passes, how much trouble would it be to go pass two more finished tests to surpass 200 points and get your GRHRCH title? Or one finished and one upland for same? Or two upland passes for same? No trouble at all.

If this is the only thing you have to complain about, life is good. Have a coke and a smile.

Steve Hester · Mar 3, 2011

copenhawgen said:
Right now, I'm of the opinion that getting 15 points for a Finished pass and only 40 points for a Grand pass is absolutely ridiculous. At the very least, a dog should get 60 for a Grand.

Am I missing something? Can anyone explain the rationale behind this?[/quote

Actually, it makes total sense. Each Finished pass is 15 points because it's two series, and an Upland pass is 10 points. The Grand is 4 series (the same as 2 Finished Tests= 30 pts.), and an Upland (10 points).

Bill Davis · Mar 3, 2011

copenhawgen said:
Right now, I'm of the opinion that getting 15 points for a Finished pass and only 40 points for a Grand pass is absolutely ridiculous. At the very least, a dog should get 60 for a Grand.

Am I missing something? Can anyone explain the rationale behind this?

Why did you even bring this up unless you wanted to start something. Have you ever run a Grand? What is your back ground in HRC

Bill Davis · Mar 3, 2011

HuntinDawg said:
I don't know what the rationale was in establishing 40 points for a grand pass (the other point values were already established previously), but you are definitely getting all twisted up about nothing.

The only possible scenario in which it would matter if a grand pass was worth more points is in going for the 500 point club, 1,000 point club, etc.

I'm bored, so I'll break it down for you:

1) A dog must be a HRCH to enter the grand, so all dogs getting a grand pass have a minimum of 100 points prior to their grand pass.
2) GRHRCH requires 2 grand passes and 200 points. Since a dog must have 100 points to enter the grand then a dog with 2 grand passes would have a minimum of 180 points. I seriously doubt there has ever been a dog with 2 grand passes and less than 200 total points, but it could happen. The point remains that almost all dogs that earn their GRHRCH do so immediately upon their second grand pass because they are already sitting at 160+ points prior to the second grand pass.
3) You must have the 2 grand passes to get the GRHRCH, it doesn't matter if the dog has 5,000 points if they don't have the 2 grand passes they are not a GRHRCH. From that standpoint the grand pass (especially the second one) is absolutely priceless within the HRC program. There is NOTHING that can replace the second grand pass. No amount of 15 pt. Finished passes could ever eclipse the significance of the second grand pass.
4) Even if for some weird reason you never ran your dog in a Finished or Upland test after getting the HRCH and then got your 80 points for 2 grand passes, how much trouble would it be to go pass two more finished tests to surpass 200 points and get your GRHRCH title? Or one finished and one upland for same? Or two upland passes for same? No trouble at all.

If this is the only thing you have to complain about, life is good. Have a coke and a smile.

You need 220 points plus two Grand Passes for 80 points for a total of 300 points to get a Grand Title. And yes there have been dogs with less then 200 and have two Grand Passes

Cleo Watson · Mar 4, 2011

Some folks just love to bitch and complain (sometimes I am one too, yes, I am, believe it or not or ask Bill).

If you are a Grand Handler and pass you dog thru two Grands and have 300 points you are a winner. You dog doesn't know how many points he has, he just loves to run. Relax and have fun or find another game.

If it is really important, go thru the process of submitting a proposed rules change and have it passed by a majority vote at the National meeting. Remember, HRC is a democracy, you have a vote.

HuntinDawg · Mar 4, 2011

Bill Davis said:
You need 220 points plus two Grand Passes for 80 points for a total of 300 points to get a Grand Title. And yes there have been dogs with less then 200 and have two Grand Passes

Thanks for the correction. I always thought it was 200 points, but it says "200 additional points."

I still think it is a non issue. If you've got a dog with 180 points, with 80 being from 2 grand passes, you are going to breeze through the remaining 120 points IMO.

My point about the 2 grand passes (especially the 2nd one) being priceless and irreplaceable within the HRC program remains true. The value in a Grand pass is not the 40 points.

Jim Stevenson · Mar 4, 2011

A dog earns 15 points for a Finished pass. A Grand series will almost always be more difficult than a Finished set up. If my last sentence is debatable, then at least a Grand series is in the 90th percentile in difficulty relative to a Finished set up. So if a dog makes it to the Upland test in the Grand, they've completed successfully 4 series greater than, but at the very least equal to, 4 Finished setups. BUT, they receive no points.

That doesn't make sense and is ridiculous to me. I asked for the rationale behind this point system so that it would make sense, giving that I am prone to misjudgements. Whether or not I have or handle a Grand dog is not germane to the question.

Jim Stevenson · Mar 4, 2011

HuntinDawg said:
My point about the 2 grand passes (especially the 2nd one) being priceless and irreplaceable within the HRC program remains true. The value in a Grand pass is not the 40 points.

You may have answered my question unintentionally. This point system keeps a bunch of FT's coming in for 2 weeks and getting a title.

HRC = Grand pass priceless
AKC FT = Grand pass meh, not worth running in 15 Finished tests to mess with

Nate_C · Mar 4, 2011

copenhawgen said:
You may have answered my question unintentionally. This point system keeps a bunch of FT's coming in for 2 weeks and getting a title.

HRC = Grand pass priceless
AKC FT = Grand pass meh, not worth running in 15 Finished tests to mess with

I don't think that is the reason. If you take the top 20 open dogs in terms of points fresh off a trial circuit and put them in a grand I bet no more then 2 would pass if that. The control, breaking birds, and not to mention the upland stuff. Now give them 2 months to only work on HRC stuff then they would do very well but then you would need another month to get them back on track for FT work.

Nate_C · Mar 4, 2011

Yes in terms of demand on the handler and the dog the grand should be worth 100 points but in the end it doesn't matter. It is just a few extra test that the guys would go to anyway. PLus don't you want to go and show off your grand qualifier dog, it just gives you an excuse.

Bill Watson · Mar 4, 2011

Ask Jerry Day ( Super Sue) or Mark Huffman (Taduh) about the price of that SECOND Grand pass. Close, but no cigar. Bill

Jim Stevenson · Mar 4, 2011

Bill Watson said:
Ask Jerry Day ( Super Sue) or Mark Huffman (Taduh) about the price of that SECOND Grand pass. Close, but no cigar. Bill

What does that mean?

Janet Kimbrough · Mar 4, 2011

What Bill Watson means is FC AFC GMH HRCH Super Sue MH passed on with 1 Grand Pass as did FC AFC HRCH Tadduh MH. I am proud to say I had the HONOR to watch both of these talented dogs in their day. I would bet there have been more dogs that have gone to the rainbow bridge with 1 Grand pass then GRHRCH's. I know I owned one.

As to the points given to the Grand I am in agreement with the other HRC folks that have stated the amount of points awarded for the Grand pass is not important. But one way to look at it is the Grand (although at higher level than Finished) is 2 Land/Water tests and 1 Upland test. In the HRC's point system, each Finished pass is 15 points and each Upland pass is 10 points (15+15+10=40). Just as in a weekend hunt test in HRC, no dog get any points if they don't pass each series. And it is no different than the Master Nationals. No one is a "partial qualifier"

There are two dogs in HRC that have earned over 5,000 points - GRHRCH Jimbo owned and handled by Ellis Howard and GRHRCH Boo owned and handled by Andy French.

Janet

Bill Davis · Mar 4, 2011

copenhawgen said:
You may have answered my question unintentionally. This point system keeps a bunch of FT's coming in for 2 weeks and getting a title.

HRC = Grand pass priceless
AKC FT = Grand pass meh, not worth running in 15 Finished tests to mess with

I would highly doubt that this was even brought up when disscussing points. What does running 15 Finished test have to do with anything?

paul young · Mar 4, 2011

copenhawgen said:
You may have answered my question unintentionally. This point system keeps a bunch of FT's coming in for 2 weeks and getting a title.

HRC = Grand pass priceless
AKC FT = Grand pass meh, not worth running in 15 Finished tests to mess with

i have no idea what you are saying here.

what is an "AKC FT"? do you mean FC? i don't get the rest of it either.....

as far as the points awarded for a Grand pass goes, that was worked out between the UKC and HRC long ago. being a Policy Vs. a Rule, you would have to work thru the Executive Committee and petition UKC to have it revised.

i think they have it about right. to achieve the GRHRCH title you need 2 grand passes and a total of 300 points. this proves both excellence and consistency.-Paul

captainjack · Mar 4, 2011

Bill Watson said:
Ask Jerry Day ( Super Sue) or Mark Huffman (Taduh) about the price of that SECOND Grand pass. Close, but no cigar. Bill

If I and my dog were to accomplish as much as Jerry and Super Sue (I don't know Taduh), I wouldn't lose much sleep about not getting the GRHRCH.

captainjack · Mar 4, 2011

copenhawgen said:
Right now, I'm of the opinion that getting 15 points for a Finished pass and only 40 points for a Grand pass is absolutely ridiculous. At the very least, a dog should get 60 for a Grand.

Am I missing something? Can anyone explain the rationale behind this?

What are you going to do with the extra 40 points (2 Grand passes and 20 extra points per pass)?

You would have the chance to get to the GRHRCH title or point club recognition with 3 less Finished passes. That's 2 weekends. In fact you could do it in one weekend with 2 Finished and 1 Upland pass.

Why is this such a big deal for you?

Am I missing something?

captainjack · Mar 4, 2011

Bill Davis said:
I would highly doubt that this was even brought up when disscussing points. What does running 15 Finished test have to do with anything?

I guess he means that to get the GRHRCH title you need 15 finished passes (15 x 15 = 225 points) plus the 2 Grand passes. This is assuming that an accomplished FT dog would not have run any lower level HRC tests.

I think requiring 15 finished passes and two Grand passes is a great thing. This is paying your dues.

To the OP...
If you want the title, then do the work!

HRC Point System

Jim Stevenson

Socks

HuntinDawg

Steve Hester

Bill Davis

Bill Davis

Cleo Watson

HuntinDawg

Jim Stevenson

Jim Stevenson

Nate_C

Nate_C

Bill Watson

Jim Stevenson

Janet Kimbrough

Bill Davis

paul young

captainjack

captainjack

captainjack

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