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push/pull drill

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#21 ·
see you in the funny farm.
Click to expand...
Be sure to say, "Hello," when you get here. :cool:
 
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#22 ·
Both Gooser and Tom have some learnin' to do if they want to improve their handling skills.
Neither method is particularly desirable. Maybe for hunt tests but not field trials.
You can handle your dog on line by slowly pivoting (on your heels) and have dog move with you and realign it's spine, head and eyes with where your foot is pointing (hopefully it's precisely pointed at the next mark or blind . Dog will have butt in very close contact with the ground staying in a sit posture as he moves with you shuffling his butt and front feet until you stop moving. The whole time his collar is glued to your leg. Lots of little details are involved in this method and you'll need to rethink your training methods to get to this level. Anyway, give it some thought.
 
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#23 ·
As I understand a push or a pull they can be either a verbal or just a silent movement of the body in a forward or reverse direction...Evan has given the correct way to begin the proces of repositioning the dog , Gosser has given info that is closer to the end product....A drill that can be done to truely test the push pull ability of dog and handler is by placing 3 bumpers in a row aprox 10 feet apart...line the dog squarely at the center one , step up to push to the left one back up to pull to the right one....The greater the distance from the row the more criticial the communication becomes... Push / pull is used to make very minor adjustments in the dogs head and eyes direction ...sometimes the eyes only....As if the dog is lining up for a blind behind the gun and the dog has it's focus on or to the front side of the thrower and all you need is the eyes shifter to the back side...the angle of change is very slight when the target is at 100 plus yards...Steve S
 
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#24 ·
Breck!:razz:

To Claim Gooser has some learnin to do is an UNDERSTATEMENT!!!:razz:

For the dog I am running now. FOR MY DOG.

I have really seen some improvements by making "Sit" a very clear cut command to my crazy wild child at the line.

I actaully took the sugestions I posted, about facing the dog to the go bird, then either stepping up or stepping back on the dog from a very experienced bunch of Field trial folks!

"SIT" has become much more Black and white to her.
She is facing the last bird down, as I sit her at the beggining. She has no reason to move at all other than her head untill I send her.

As She returns from the Go Bird,, Its my resposiblity to be correctly facing the bird I want her to pick up next.. She Heels, and is automatically lined up. All I have to do is send.

Just repete for remaining mark.

You said Quote:
Both Gooser and Tom have some learnin' to do if they want to improve their handling skills.
Neither method is particularly desirable. Maybe for hunt tests but not field trials.

I dont understand why there would be a difference??

I owe this group a world a thanks for helping me improve!!

I still got a LONNNNNG way to go!

Thanks:

Gooser




 
#25 ·
MooseGooser said:
Breck!:razz:


I actaully took the sugestions I posted, about facing the dog to the go bird, then either stepping up or stepping back on the dog from a very experienced bunch of Field trial folks!

"SIT" has become much more Black and white to her.
She is facing the last bird down, as I sit her at the beggining. She has no reason to move at all other than her head untill I send her.

As She returns from the Go Bird,, Its my resposiblity to be correctly facing the bird I want her to pick up next.. She Heels, and is automatically lined up. All I have to do is send.

Just repete for remaining mark.


This was the process I learned in the early 80's when I started running field trials...With the coming of hunt test and the 180* swings, the dog is being allowed to move on line or just pointed to the middle of the test to begin with... Since we are not allowed to point out the guns before the birds are called for.... Some trialers now sit the dog looking at the first bird down if it is the long bird...differnt thoughs as to why each way is done...Steve S
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#27 · (Edited)
Gooser (and dadams)
If you want to step your handling up a notch think about leaving the stepping forward and stepping back or kneeing into dog behind.
The dog can be trained to respond to your foot movement and some other very subtle movements and voice.
I'll try to describe the foot movement. Difficult to verbalize but I thinl you'll get the general idea.
It helps to use a pinch collar and short tab. Tab is in your left hand but don't use it to steer your dog.
Dog is sitting perfectly at left heel spine lined up to 12 o'clock. We're going to move dog to 10 o'clock then to 2 o'clock.
Imagine your heels are essentially nailed down to one spot.
Slowly (count of 3) slide your left foot only (moving nothing else) to point to 10 o'clock while saying heel if necessary. Your heel is in original spot. At the same time dog, with butt in contact with ground, collar at your leg and front feet even with your foot has pivoted with you, shuffling his butt and front feet and has lined his spine to 10 o'clock where your foot is now pointed. Move your right foot to meet your left.
You've just pushed your dog and realigned his spine doing nothing more than pointing your foot to a new spot. When pushing dogs they can over heel and get behind you. Reaching back with your foot and tapping them on the butt works well.
Now, slowly pivot your right foot to 2 o'clock while saying here if necessary or a gentile tug on pinch collar and bring your left foot to meet your right. At the same time dog will move with you and line up with your foot.
You can teach this using various lining drills.
You'll find you can really fine tune where your dog is looking while making it their responsibility to line up to your foot. Using steps forward or back are not very clear to the dog exactly where you want them to look.
Give it a try.
 
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#29 ·
Breck!

Thank you!

Interesting. But seriously, If'n I was to try somethin different ,after I have found religion and a congregation,, I think it might be a bit Blastphamous.
That group has taken a stick to me every weekend since last October!!

I know I is already goin to haydees,,, not goin to speed the process up!

But thanks for the explaination!:razz:


Gooser
 
#30 ·
Ha Ha you're always so funny.
You could practice without them knowing than one day show up and blow their freakin minds!
Again, rather difficult to put into words and even more difficult trying to learn with out seeing it in person. Anyway, hope it gives you some ideas.
 
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#31 · (Edited)
Breck posted
while saying here if necessary or a gentile tug on pinch collar
Click to expand...
And here we all were thinking your advice was kosher!;-)

Breck, what I've started to work on has a similar objective to yours, but with a different method; I won't be standing square on as is the North American style, I'll use the UK stance with feet apart. That way I think will give a more distinct and obvious cue to Fido, through what rifle shooters call a longer sight base.

The outcome I'm looking for is similar to yours but I want his backside anchored to my back foot, that is the back sight, and then pivot with my front foot, having his offside front paw touching my boot, which in effect becomes the front sight.

Well that's the theory anyway, it's pretty rough looking at the minute! Perhaps another two months and we'll know if the idea is a runner. If this basic alignment idea works I have some thoughts along MooseGoosers lines for a final refinement using the directing hand.

Thanks for your input,

Eug
 
#32 · (Edited)
Breck said:
Both Gooser and Tom have some learnin' to do if they want to improve their handling skills.
Neither method is particularly desirable. Maybe for hunt tests but not field trials.
You can handle your dog on line by slowly pivoting (on your heels) and have dog move with you and realign it's spine, head and eyes with where your foot is pointing (hopefully it's precisely pointed at the next mark or blind . Dog will have butt in very close contact with the ground staying in a sit posture as he moves with you shuffling his butt and front feet until you stop moving. The whole time his collar is glued to your leg. Lots of little details are involved in this method and you'll need to rethink your training methods to get to this level. Anyway, give it some thought.
Click to expand...
ROFL
All depends on the development of the dog. What you would do with an all age dog is a lot different than what you would do with a 6 month old puppy. The OP was asking about how to start a dog with push-pull, not how to handle a finished dog, and I would suggest a little more exaggeration to your movements to get the dog started than what you are suggesting. You can pivot on your heel all you want, the 6 month old puppy will have no clue of what you are asking it to do. A finished dog should be responding to as little as a 1/4 inch flexing of your knee.
The biggest mistake I see in trying to align a dog is still trying to line the dog up on a mark/blind 100 -200 yards away instead of that "spot" 10 feet in front of the dog regardless of what the handler is using for push-pull.

Eug
What he is suggesting for the finished product is that your movements to align the dog should be minimal (nothing exaggerated), which is correct.
Be careful with what you do with that hand! You will find that in most cases any movement of the hand when sending the dog will tend to turn the dog off line.
 
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#33 ·
Thanks Tom,

The standard I'm aiming for but not yet working to is about half the width of my boot (and I've only got dainty little geisha girl feet!)

The hand cue is something else; I've got a seriously off the wall idea about that; definitely an asylum job.

With this particular dog I've got nothing to lose if things don't work out, but it will be an interesting experiment that will stretch me as well as him. We'll both learn something.

Eug
 
#34 · (Edited)
Colonel Blimp said:
Thanks Tom,

The standard I'm aiming for but not yet working to is about half the width of my boot (and I've only got dainty little geisha girl feet!)

The hand cue is something else; I've got a seriously off the wall idea about that; definitely an asylum job.

With this particular dog I've got nothing to lose if things don't work out, but it will be an interesting experiment that will stretch me as well as him. We'll both learn something.

Eug
Click to expand...
Understand, but think about eye movement. You have the dog focused on the objective, then at the last moment you ask it to look at your hand movement.
Now if the dog is not focused on the objective, there is no point in sending it until it is. With a young dog when it isn't focusing on the objective, I will heel the dog in a 360 and realign it. Just be sure to turn in the direction that minimizes it's ability to refocus on the wrong objective.
 
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#35 ·
Tom,
Absolutely something to train a puppy for in the yard very early. Old hat for the big dogs. You can expect them to get it very quickly. Requires a higher obediance standard that few have seen and fewer actually train for. A 6 month old is just starting it's training so no you wouldn't be expecting too much yet.

Tom,
While a 360 swing is sometimes necessary dog will get more out of the lesson if you move him towards the wrong objective not away from it. Hold them accountable. You need to be able to read their intentions which is not accomplished by taking away choices, good and bad. Try it, I won't ROFL.
 
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#36 · (Edited)
Breck said:
Tom,
Absolutely something to train a puppy for in the yard very early. Old hat for the big dogs. You can expect them to get it very quickly. Requires a higher obediance standard that few have seen and fewer actually train for. A 6 month old is just starting it's training so no you wouldn't be expecting too much yet.

Tom,
While a 360 swing is sometimes necessary dog will get more out of the lesson if you move him towards the wrong objective not away from it. Hold them accountable. You need to be able to read their intentions which is not accomplished by taking away choices, good and bad. Try it, I won't ROFL.
Click to expand...
Sorry but we will have to agree to disagree on both counts. We are talking about young dogs here. All in due course as the dog progresses.
When we start expecting too much too soon, it becomes to easy to punish instead of teaching. The dog needs to know what it is being punished for before the punishment has any value. How quickly we progress from one step to the next is totally dependent on the individual dog.

BTW (just re-read your answer) when you move the young dog toward the wrong objective, that is the proper direction. This makes that wrong objective the first thing it sees in the circle instead of the last thing it sees before being lined on the proper objective.
 
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#37 ·
Who says there has to be punishment, or even much pressure of any kind for a 6 month old pup to learn this? I think that's a great formative time for a pup to learn to move with you. Adapt the training to the dog, not the dog to the training.

Evan
 
#39 · (Edited)
Adapt the training to the dog, not the dog to the training.
Click to expand...
Agree with that!

I think that's a great formative time for a pup to learn to move with you.
Click to expand...
Just don't expect it to happen over night.
 
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#40 ·
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