Nice looking FT lines

Granddaddy · May 29, 2011

Not sure why I post on these threads when I see them but most "conformation" enthusiasts of today have no idea of the history of the American Labrador or its look and conformation. Instead they take today's accepted conformation "look" and try to build the case as to why our FT lines today don't have good conformation. The fact is most FT lines today look virtually the same as they did when there were dual champions. The photo below being a prime example. The Grangemead lines were dominate both in the field and on the bench in the 40s & 50s and many FT line dogs look very similar today. What has changed and influenced the casual observer (or those who refuse to look at history) is/was the introduction of English bench dogs into the conformation and bench stock in the US. With the eventual acceptance of the English look a divide was/has been created in the accepted conformation "look". I prefer the American Labrador and its "look", which BTW more closely follows the conformation std provided by the LRC in size and proportion.And most important the American Labrador continues to dominate in the field while the English show dogs lack the drive to compete in the field. Just to avoid misunderstanding, the English bench dogs mentioned above are not to be confused with the British field Labs which have also maintained the performance function of the Labrador Retriever breed. Point being if performance is removed from the dog it isn't really a Labrador Retriever at all. Form follows function...

Keith Farmer · May 29, 2011

How about these lines...

T-Bone:

Deke:

Nitro:

Tank:

.

DMA · May 29, 2011

Keith:
Those are the colors I would like to breed specifically for, the blue I like best.

Howard N · May 29, 2011

DMA said:
Keith:
Those are the colors I would like to breed specifically for, the blue I like best.

Yeah, breed for blue, but accept a red or two along the way.

jeff evans · May 29, 2011

Steve Babcock said:
I was wondering which FT lines are throwing pups with nice confirmation. The confirmation I'm thinking about are along the lines of a Confirmation Certificate; a good looking head, nice top line and a double coat.

One line that I'm that I am familar with is Honest Abe, he seemed to throw nice looking pups with different bitches.

Could we have some comments from the confirmation people?

In field breeding " beauty is as beauty does!!"

Gerry Clinchy · May 29, 2011

I don't know about anyone else, but when I do show/field cross's it's very difficult to find a structurally correct field dog. You get pieces that are good and you use those pieces hopefully to improve the bitch, which in my case is usually show bred.

This is interesting. Goldens have a GRCA Award called the "Certificate of Conformation Assessment". The idea was to judge the dogs to the Standard of the Breed. Three evaluators (some licensed judges, some long-time breeders, etc.) evaluate each dog independently of each other. Their score sheet breaks down the Standard into several parts, highlighing critical words from the Standard for those parts of the dog. They also include an on-lead "mingling" time to evaluate temperament.

An interesting comment from several of the evaluators, most of whom are conformation people, is that they find structure in many of the field-bred dogs to be superior. They can (and do!) fault them for inadequate bone, substance, and head features, but the field-bred dogs often do well on angulation, front-end assemblies, not to mention "hard working condition".

Long ago, at field trials, I admired the beautiful neck & shoulder layback of field Labs I met. Also the Chessies there seemed far sounder for working purposes than the ones I was seeing in the show ring. I found the latter particularly interesting, and it sent me to reading the AKC Standard for Chessies. The field Chessies seemed to fulfil that Standard better than the show dogs.

hotel4dogs · May 29, 2011

The golden CCA is very interesting and informative and I highly recommend it for everyone with goldens.
Some of the evaluators, btw, are long time field breeders. Not everyone is from the "show world".
When we did the CCA in April, most of the dogs were field type goldens, just a couple of show dogs, and I believe all but 1 passed.

Gerry Clinchy said:
This is interesting. Goldens have a GRCA Award called the "Certificate of Conformation Assessment". The idea was to judge the dogs to the Standard of the Breed. Three evaluators (some licensed judges, some long-time breeders, etc.) evaluate each dog independently of each other. Their score sheet breaks down the Standard into several parts, highlighing critical words from the Standard for those parts of the dog. They also include an on-lead "mingling" time to evaluate temperament.

An interesting comment from several of the evaluators, most of whom are conformation people, is that they find structure in many of the field-bred dogs to be superior. They can (and do!) fault them for inadequate bone, substance, and head features, but the field-bred dogs often do well on angulation, front-end assemblies, not to mention "hard working condition".

Long ago, at field trials, I admired the beautiful neck & shoulder layback of field Labs I met. Also the Chessies there seemed far sounder for working purposes than the ones I was seeing in the show ring. I found the latter particularly interesting, and it sent me to reading the AKC Standard for Chessies. The field Chessies seemed to fulfil that Standard better than the show dogs.

Gerry Clinchy · May 29, 2011

Some of the evaluators, btw, are long time field breeders. Not everyone is from the "show world".
When we did the CCA in April, most of the dogs were field type goldens, just a couple of show dogs, and I believe all but 1 passed.

There are some really neat field people who are evalulators! In our area (PA) we seem to get more of the conformation people, and not as many of the field ones. At the recent Lenape CCA, there were only 4 dogs of the "field persuasion" entered.

I think both the evaluators and the participants may vary by the population of each group in different areas.

Angie B · May 29, 2011

champ said:
In field breeding " beauty is as beauty does!!"

I'm all about a functional field dog. It just doesn't have to be ugly.

The picture shows 3 generations of Master hunters. The older dog on the left is a UD, MH. The middle dog is the 48th CH/MH and the gal on the right is a MH before the age of 3. Could they compete in a field trial?? Nooooo,,, but neither could 90% of the retrievers out there.

All three hunt by the way...

Angie

Purpledawg · May 29, 2011

I've put a show championship on a Labrador in 1993. She was balanced front to rear. Not overly angulated on either end. She moved well with her rear feet hitting where her front feet left. Pleasing head, expression. She had more desire to retrieve than most of her competitors. Weighed 63 lbs. Today she would not be able to win in that ring.

She lived a 14 yrs. and got me hooked on hunt tests that has lead to many rewarding experiences.

EdA · May 29, 2011

Angie B said:
It just doesn't have to be ugly.
Angie

Your perception of "ugly" is just that, your perception, this applies to people as well, when I am out in a crowd I am often struck by how many truly unattractive people there are......and many of them choose to reproduce...

I have had field trial Labradors for 40 years and have never had one I would consider ugly, some are better looking than others but looks does not translate to ability, the confirmation bred Labradors I see today look like Labrador/Rottweiler crosses, short and unathletic, something that would be physically incapable of the athletic feats required in the field.

Angie B · May 30, 2011

Your perception of "ugly" is just that, your perception, this applies to people as well, when I am out in a crowd I am often struck by how many truly unattractive people there are......and many of them choose to reproduce...

Most people want to reproduce. Looking in the mirror hardly plays into it. Dogs are even less selective...

But their owners are not. (Thank god)

But if a individual ran the Boston marathon, scaled Mount Everest, and brought home the most gold medals for the US at the recent Olympics.. Game on.. Please...

They could be as "ugly" as the day is long and couldn't possibly balance their own check book. But what a physical specimen!!!

I have had field trial Labradors for 40 years and have never had one I would consider ugly, some are better looking than others but looks does not translate to ability, the confirmation bred Labradors I see today look like Labrador/Rottweiler crosses, short and unathletic, something that would be physically incapable of the athletic feats required in the field.

Kennel blindness is bliss Ed... I would no more think that you would look over the fence to the other side of the breed then fly to the moon. I choose to because I believe in my heart of hearts that we can get back to a moderate looking dog that's good looking, easy to train and is easy to live with that can do the job. I'm not talking about winning field trials.

I've never sent you a conformation dog that fits your description. Those that I have sent you fit my description.

And lastly,,, there are many of those wonderfully spectacular field bred dogs that land in the totally wrong homes. Too much dog for the average owner. I deal with them almost every day.

Angie

EdA · May 30, 2011

Angie B said:
Kennel blindness is bliss Ed... I would no more think that you would look over the fence to the other side of the breed then fly to the moon.
Angie

Wow, you have exceeded yourself, I have been accused of many things in my life and probably some deservedly but "kennel blindness" is not one of them, more good dogs have left here than you could ever hope to see.

You have an inimitable knack for antagonizing those who might support you.

Enjoy Memorial Day and the reason it exists.

David Maddox · May 30, 2011

Dr.Ed's comment about Lab/Rottweiler crosses,"Granddaddy's" reply, and all of this discussion about "Nice looking field trial lines" has motivated me into digging thru my book collection in search of The Labrador Retriever Club, Inc's, "The Official Book of the Labrador Retriever". This defense of our present day show lines as being "typish" humors me to no end. After twice reading TLRC's book from cover to cover, as well as owning a linebred grandson of the great CH-Shamrock Acres Light Brigade (12x BIS), I have developed a very clear awareness of the evolution/or manipulation that has transpired in the breeding of today's "show" labs.

Now I'm talking about looks here, and I know for a fact that Briggs, considered by many as one of the "greatest show dogs of all times-any breed", looked very little like the barrel chested, stubby nosed, show Champions of today. Intrigued, I went back to the LRC's book and started looking at photos of dogs pictured in the chapter titled "Famous Show Labs" (PP.87-92) and I was hard pressed to find anything that looked remotely like our present day show champions. I then ventured on thru the next chapter-"Judging the Labrador Retriever" (PP.93-106) and finally found 2 or 3 CHs that looked a little more like today's ring dogs.

I found it interesting that neither the famous CH-Franklin's Mandingo, Ch-Dark Star of Franklin, nor Dual CH/FTCH-Shed of Arden favored any of the successful show dogs of today.
My question is, would Champions Shamrock Acres Light Brigade or Franklin's Mandingo even make it in the show ring of today?

I'm not gonna lie, I've seen a couple of show dogs that I'd hunt with any time, and I also think that some of our field trial dogs are unbelievably handsome specimens!!!

ErinsEdge · May 30, 2011

Sally still breeds a more moderate dog with longer legs and a nice head without that awful overdone stop that makes them look dumb... IMHO. Since their heads are so different than a pleasing field head with intelligent expression, I don't see it as pretty but many people do. Each to their own. Give me the Grangemead boys anyday.

Angie B · May 30, 2011

EdA said:
Wow, you have exceeded yourself, I have been accused of many things in my life and probably some deservedly but "kennel blindness" is not one of them, more good dogs have left here than you could ever hope to see.

You have an inimitable knack for antagonizing those who might support you.

Enjoy Memorial Day and the reason it exists.

So you missed my point.. Good for you...

I will do so... My children, in laws and parents have made this country a better place so you and I can argue over the "Labrador"

I love a vet!!! No pun intended,

Angie

Steve Babcock · May 30, 2011

I just got back from a trial and was surprised that this thread was still going. I appreciate the fact that a lot of people with many credentials have posted.

I like Ed's first option breeding comment there is a lot of truth in that.

Angie, you have gave some very thoughtful answers with great pictures.

I think I also need to defend Willie a little bit, I believe I judged him twice and he was a nice running dog and he was there at the end in both of them. The one he got the RJ was more like an Open, because of the quality of the field.

Nice looking FT lines

Granddaddy

Keith Farmer

DMA

Howard N

jeff evans

Gerry Clinchy

hotel4dogs

Gerry Clinchy

Angie B

Purpledawg

EdA

Angie B

EdA

David Maddox

ErinsEdge

Angie B

Steve Babcock

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