Shouldn't there be some "family resemblance?"

1tulip · Jun 5, 2011

OK... very established breeder in our part of the country. Lots of her dogs around. Great reputation. I ended up (long story) with a pup that was an unexpected left over. Never saw sire or dam. Now for the last three years, folks who are familiar with this breeder's dogs have remarked that mine is a few standard deviations to the right on the "drive and drama" scale. I love her, but she is a real piece of work.

So, when I saw a full sibling was entered in our HT... I made it a point to go meet the owner and dog, and maybe learn a little more my dog. (I mean... obviously, here was an owner who had deliberately intended to get a pup from this breeding, so there must have been things they were looking for.) And indeed, there were. And, apparently they got exactly what they expected.

But our dogs have NOTHING in common. She was going on and on about how mellow her dog is. (Mine is many things but mellow isn't one of them.) The leg:body ratio on the two dogs is radically different. The heads/faces don't look at all the same. Mine is compact and muscular, hers is long and lean.

What they have in common is that they are both fine dogs. And exactly the same on paper. But that's it.

Is my dog a fluke?

Matt Griffiths · Jun 5, 2011

is the breeding an outcross or a line breeding?

gdgnyc · Jun 5, 2011

I don't think that they have to resemble each other that much. Just like fraternal twins. Also, I got to see the whole litter before choosing my pup. My pup is a highly driven, smaller athletic golden. In the same litter was a pup, a large, chubby cute golden with what looked like little prey drive.

torrentduck · Jun 5, 2011

You have not seen or observed the other side of the chromosome contribution- correct? The genes are there (behavior, drive, appearance), but you can't predict the final outcome. That's why breeders tend to take pick of the litter. We have a grandmother, daughter, and grand daughter where are beagles are concerned. They share some same behaviors, but are different in terms of hunting style. If you saw the three together, you would be challenged to see the relationship. On the other hand, one of the males from the litter the produced one of our girls is splitting image (looks and behavior) or the male.
Viva la difference!

Gerry Clinchy · Jun 5, 2011

In discussions with experienced breeders, I have heard them say that traits can come to the surface from as far back as 6 generations. Sometimes the people doing such breedings never saw the dog who might be transmitting those traits forward to today's litter, so are even unaware that those traits are present in the lineage.

Also would agree that when it comes to the outcross the diversity of the genes available from the two mates can make the outcome quite a conglomeration. That is one reason that breeders like linebreedings: more predictability.

A kind of visual for this: think of the parents as two jars of colored marbles. In a linebreeding you may have two jars that may be mostly blue and red marbles, with just a few yellow ones. If you dump the two jars into one larger jar, the few yellow marbles may almost disappear from view. If you grab a handful of marbles from the jar, your chances of getting a yellow one may be slim. Depending on the proportions of red and blue marbles you started with, the handful you grab are likely to be mostly blue or mostly red or a pretty even mix of red & blue.

When dealing with an outcross, you may have more red & blue than other colors, but you might also have significant numbers of yellow; maybe even some green, orange or white ones are in the mix

When you dump the two jars together, and grab a handful, you have some chance that you'll be getting more of those different colored marbles, not as much out-numbered by the reds and blues.

The genetic make-up of our dogs is, of course, MUCH more complex than this, but it can help to visualize in simple terms.

1tulip · Jun 5, 2011

I suppose I assumed she was line-bred (I have that pedigree around here somewhere) and that's why I was surprised.

I respect what reputable breeders of consistently fine dogs do. They seem to be making these decisions strategically. They don't just cross "a good dog with a good dog". What constitutes a "line bred" dog? If they share a connection to a common multi-titled dog one or two generations back... is that a line breeding?

Kenneth Niles Bora · Jun 5, 2011

1tulip said:
.... What constitutes a "line bred" dog? If they share a connection to a common multi-titled dog one or two generations back... is that a line breeding?

easiest way to wrap your mind around it is the Foxworthy way.
if your great uncle, on your Moms side, is also your dad, you might be line bred.

　
.

Gerry Clinchy · Jun 5, 2011

1tulip said:
What constitutes a "line bred" dog? If they share a connection to a common multi-titled dog one or two generations back... is that a line breeding?

Linebreeding can be "close" or "loose".

If you breed a father to a daughter; mother to son; full sibling to full sibling, those are very close linebreedings. They are not real common.

A breeder must know the dogs in the pedigrees well to attempt a close linebreeding. While the "good" can be enhanced, it can also bring out whatever "bad" is there. You'd like to feel pretty confident that anything "bad" that results will not be disastrously so for the puppy who is affected with whatever it might be. Some breeders might do a very close linebreeding to specifically see what "bad" might be there. This could help them to choose future breedings wisely.

Linebreeding could include more than just one individual ancestor. A breeder could be seeking to fortify more than one ancestor.

Essentially, any time we breed a pure-bred dog there is an element of linebreeding involved. We arrived at the individual breeds by culling out traits we did not want to establish the distinctive breeds.

This is what the COI (inbreeding co-efficient) tells you. However, you can gain further insight by doing a genetic influence table ... which actually tells you how often a particular ancestor occurs in a pedigree.

I have done a breeding with a COI as low as .04% and gone as high as 18% (twice). Typically, my own breedings will fall between 4% and 10%; sometimes lower than 4%.

Tools like this can be insightful when you have knowledge about what the influential ancestors were really like, first-hand information ... or information from others who knew the dogs well & who can convey their information to you in terms you can relate to. I think that is why, except for "accidental" breedings, you will most often see close linebreeding by breeders who have established their own line & who have had the first-hand knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree & how those dogs produced as well, both when linebred before or outcrossed.

Billie · Jun 5, 2011

1tulip said:
I suppose I assumed she was line-bred (I have that pedigree around here somewhere) and that's why I was surprised.

. What constitutes a "line bred" dog? If they share a connection to a common multi-titled dog one or two generations back... is that a line breeding?

I was told, that if the breeding worked well it was a linebreeding.
If it didnt work well and you didnt like the results- it was Inbreeding..

Really though, do you totally resemble your siblings? in a family of 5 kids , some of us look like my mom more ,and some look like my dad.
Same with littermates, ...

Gerry Clinchy · Jun 5, 2011

Billie said:
I was told, that if the breeding worked well it was a linebreeding.
If it didnt work well and you didnt like the results- it was Inbreeding..

I really will have to remember that if the occasion should ever arise!

Really though, do you totally resemble your siblings? in a family of 5 kids , some of us look like my mom more ,and some look like my dad.
Same with littermates, ...

Even though our own parents are likely not to have any duplication of ancestry for many more generations than our dogs (thankfully!), even in linebred dogs there can be variation, although the range of variation might be less.

Shouldn't there be some "family resemblance?"

1tulip

Matt Griffiths

gdgnyc

torrentduck

Gerry Clinchy

1tulip

Kenneth Niles Bora

Gerry Clinchy

Billie

Gerry Clinchy

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