Washing a PUPPY out

Lenore · Jul 25, 2011

Howard N said:
It's normal for a pup going through basics to become uncertain and slow down. This is also the time when you see how the dog responds to pressure and training. Dogs get through this and become hard chargers but not all. No matter what Lenore says, this is the time you introduce pressure training to young dogs and they show us what they're made of.

Whether to wash the dog or not, I have no idea. What are this guy's goals?

I agree with you Howard, dogs do become uncertain in this stage. The problem I have with pressure is if it fair or not. Using pressure unfairly is not acceptable at all. I have no problem using pressure accordingly and yes, I have light my own dogs up for major infractions when they know better and understand.

KwickLabs · Jul 25, 2011

I'd say it is difficult to "dish out grief" to the inexperienced. Consistent encouraging advice delivered in an attrition type manner could prove more productive. If you have a pup that is not dealing with pressure very well, do you apply more pressure? Telling someone what they should do when they haven't a clue doesn't work.

Your dilemma reminds me of an andecdotal solution which happened to me. It is anecdotal in the sense that it is not a given this young man is in exactly the same situation. However, it does supply perspective. There are solutions that must come from within.

The first retriever I trained could do no wrong. It didn't make any difference what I did. Taffey just loved life and lived to train. She was mentally stong, smart, very forgiving and a natural. She handled pressure extremely well.

A few years later I bought a pup by an NFC out of a Lean Mack bitch. Jumping ahead to what I "discovered", he did not handle pressure well and I didn't deal with that issue very well (which is an understatement). I had reminded myself to not compare, but I'd only been down one road and had no reference to a dog with issues.

Kooly was about the same age as the pup in this topic. I was at the end of "Ken's rope" so to speak. I was about finished with him because I could see no solution. Of course the logical one was I needed to change but didn't or wouldn't confront that solution. The term "washout" surfaced and it bothered me.

However, just like the pup in this thread, hunting season was only a month or so away. I quit pushing him (mostly because I'd given up and was treading water) and spent a month playing and "goofing off". It turned out to be just the right way to cope. Doing nothing is always better than continuing the wrong things. Then, one day I decided to take him to a game farm for pheasants. I had no preplanned expectations except to have fun......if possible. He'd been forced, done double T and swim-by and none of those were any fun.

When I shot that first pheasant, Kooly had no idea what was going on. He only got a glimps when it fell....but found it. On the next flush, Kooly was bounding around, jumping like a kangaroo above the sorghum and pivoting his head like a periscope looking for another "flyer". He was basically one wild, driven dog and I was instantly asking myself "Who is this dog and where did he come from?"

It dawned on me that my training program with Kooly had never allowed him to find a way to deal with pressure. There was no joy or fun. It was in the "My way or the highway" mode which he couldn't handle and I couldn't change. It wasn't until I saw with my own eyes that'd we had been doing things all wrong. I was continually doing what I needed and expecting my preconceived results instead of responding to what the pup needed in each and every moment.....what's in this for me?

I still have Kooly. He is a fun dog that loves to hunt. With maturity, he now understands pressure and has a Senior title. What he "taught me" enhanced the training of my next two pups. I'd like to think Kooly has forgiven me.

This might be a good story to share. Let the pup "find the fun" and see if the trainer can discover a reason to change his training methods/mindset.

Simply stated, "It's probably not the dog."

Red Barn Retrievers · Jul 25, 2011

I hope I am not reading more into this then it is but. I hate to see a young dog treated as disposable because he doesn't play the GAME....decided to part with IT. I won't go into a big thing about this with my feelings and opinon. I have been in the dog business some 40 yrs and have seen alot. Maybe the pup could get a better home anyway. So what if he not a recorded breaker it is only a human GAME. I can understand problems like gun shy....I have adopted my labs and they will be with me untill they die or who ever goes first. It sound like you have a good training group so keep trying. Happy Tails

Howard N · Jul 25, 2011

Lenore said:
I agree with you Howard, dogs do become uncertain in this stage. The problem I have with pressure is if it fair or not. Using pressure unfairly is not acceptable at all. I have no problem using pressure accordingly and yes, I have light my own dogs up for major infractions when they know better and understand.

I don't understand your post. This isn't a trained dog that understands pressure. We can't, as of yet, "light him up," for an infraction major or otherwise, except as pure punishment. Punishment works but in basics, we are teaching the dog how to get out of pressure. Pressure is much more than punishment. We collar condition, force fetch, force to a pile, do the double T and swimby. In none of these are we using pressure for an infraction, we are teaching the dog about pressure and how to get out of it. Dog's attitudes do go down in basics but it comes back when they understand pressure and the jobs they're being trained to do. In basics we teach the dog how pressure will be used, if we're consistent, the dog understands it and we have a great tool to use the rest of the dog's life. Now we have a framework of what is fair and not fair.

MarkyMark · Jul 25, 2011

Sounds like that dog needs my home PM me maybe we can work something out.

Jacob Hawkes · Jul 25, 2011

Howard N said:
Probably not, he's trying hard and it isn't working to his expectations. I'd try and work on what I see wrong with the way he's training the dog, but I wouldn't get on him for his effort.

It's normal for a pup going through basics to become uncertain and slow down. This is also the time when you see how the dog responds to pressure and training. Dogs get through this and become hard chargers but not all. No matter what Lenore says, this is the time you introduce pressure training to young dogs and they show us what they're made of.

Whether to wash the dog or not, I have no idea. Is he really trying to pound a square peg into a round hole or is his methodology not suitable? What are this guy's goals?

What he said 100%. Well done.

KwickLabs · Jul 25, 2011

this is the time you introduce pressure training to young dogs and they show us what they're made of.................Is he really trying to pound a square peg into a round hole or is his methodology not suitable?

I think this says it all about the inexperienced trainer and his pup.

I have a tendency to read between the lines. In re-reading the original post, there seems to be another issue. Not all experienced trainers are good at teaching others to train. In my opinion, this becomes even more of an issue in a group setting. This may seem a bit judgemental on my part, but is "giving group grief" to a "student" an effective way to teach? or has the end of "that rope" come into view?

Alex · Jul 25, 2011

Nowhere but on the internet can people who have never seen a dog decide whether or not a dog should be washed out

Stan b · Jul 25, 2011

A question was asked, opinions were given.

I don't think anyone threw anyone under any busses.

I would give the pup a little chance.

Many experts on this forum have commented on how some labs mature a little slower than others.

I know for a fact some trainer/handlers mature at different rates.

No one here has the perfect answer, my humble opinion was that maybe that pup could still mature into a fine dog.
I cited my own experience.
I personally meant no disrespect to trainer or pup.

Best of luck to both.

Just sayin'.......

stan b

cpmm665 · Jul 25, 2011

A gentleman joined our RC for help in training his 1yr. old BLF. His intentions for the dog were to have a reliable hunting dog. He attended our "beginner" training sessions. Upon watching this dog run a few times, I was impressed with her style. I inquired about her pedigree and found out she has FC/AFC titles lurking in the background on Dam and Sire side. Our Newb had said to me he wanted a dog with high drive. Well, if that's what he told the breeder, that's what he got. Unfortunately for this Pup, the owners degree of training knowledge and his expectations (reliable hunting dog), were not balanced. (he took this 9mos. old pup on a duck hunt expecting it to perform like the 12 year old he had recently lost. Basic obedience training only, hoping that natural instinct would prove itself).

This guy was frustrated. I asked him if he knew what he had on his hands based on her pedigree, he had NO CLUE. I told him he had a Ferrari, and what he really wanted was a mini-van. When I asked which training program he was following, he cocked his head, and gave me the deer-in-the-headlights look. I advised a program or two and agreed to work with him. It took 3 months for him to get a program. It has taken a lot of patience on my part, and yes, I did offer to take the dog off his hands, but I continued to coach and teach....for dog's sake and for the sake of future dogs this guy may own.

I have seen progress in the Owner and the dog, for that, I wouldn't throw in the towel. If you asked me if a felt this owner/dog was a good match, I'd say NO, you don't buy high drive when you want calm/submissive. To the OP, you never stated the Dog owners intentions when you made the "piggy" reference. Personally, I like a stylish dog, but I have witnessed many a dog that plodded out to pin a mark. Were they "bad" dogs? No, just different.

I could have easily washed out this guy. I didn't. I took a personal oath to the sport. I don't like every human or dog I train with, but I'm open to encouragement and sharing what I have experienced. If the receiving end isn't open, even after multiple passes, I may have to rethink the game plan.

I feel grateful for all the times someone didn't give up on me.

tshuntin · Jul 25, 2011

scott spalding said:
So maybe we wait to CHEW HIM A NEW ONE until we get all the information.

+1 Scott. Agreed.

tshuntin · Jul 25, 2011

A team said:
So,
Are we justified in giving a bit of grief to this young man for throwing his arms up so soon?

A-team, I am sure you don't mean this negative at this young man and are probably just trying to encourage, so I am not directing this at you personally or anyone else. Others in this thread have wanted to be pretty critical of this young man without knowing much information, but are certainly quick to pass judgement. This is a real thing out there.

Could this type of attitude from some people be one of the bigger reasons young people have a difficult time getting involved and staying involved in our sport?

Encourage, build up, guide, help, support, mentor, and grow our sport.

As for washing a young dog out... Me personally, there are several things that could cause me to wash a dog out and some of those could be apparent at a young age.

frontier · Jul 25, 2011

Has there been any preliminary OFA and elbow clearances done?

Few years back, my pro label my FC-AFC sired pup X a dam with all-age points as "piggy" and uncooperative and untrainable.

I asked him to take the pup in for OFA prelims... pup had Grade III elbow dysplasia and Degenerative Joint Disease and marginal hips.

Last dog I put in training prior to hip and elbow prelims.

cpmm665 · Jul 25, 2011

frontier said:
Has there been any preliminary OFA and elbow clearances done?

Few years back, my pro label my FC-AFC sired pup X a dam with all-age points as "piggy" and uncooperative and untrainable.

I asked him to take the pup in for OFA prelims... pup had Grade III elbow dysplasia and Degenerative Joint Disease and marginal hips.

Last dog I put in training prior to hip and elbow prelims.

That's another respectable point of view worthy of consideration.

RF2 · Jul 25, 2011

roseberry said:
yes to grief giving. i thought that the number two goal of all training groups is to provide an environment where all members are entitled to give unlimited grief to all other members.

that being said, if the personalities are not a match, a new home for pup can be found and your partner wants out, don't stand in the way. the pup may flourish with a new home. your training partner may have learned a little and may listen more next time around. if anyone in the group is willing to take the pup, they will be very motivated to make a winner and prove a point. then the grief giving gets fun, great training group "drama"!

Thanks for letting me know there are no boundaries!

A team · Jul 26, 2011

jamaulden said:
A team is this one of thoes deals like going to the Dr. and saying "Ive got this friend who has this rash....." just curious?

No I can assure you, this is not I've got a friend with a rash situation.

A team · Jul 26, 2011

Red Barn Retrievers said:
I hope I am not reading more into this then it is but. I hate to see a young dog treated as disposable because he doesn't play the GAME....decided to part with IT. I won't go into a big thing about this with my feelings and opinon. I have been in the dog business some 40 yrs and have seen alot. Maybe the pup could get a better home anyway. So what if he not a recorded breaker it is only a human GAME. I can understand problems like gun shy....I have adopted my labs and they will be with me untill they die or who ever goes first. It sound like you have a good training group so keep trying. Happy Tails

Our group is a GREAT group and the word"grief" may have been the wrong word of choice. The young man does get some ribbing but at the end of the day we all leave as friends.

A team · Jul 26, 2011

John Daniels said:
If the dog is lacking confidence than why is he putting alot of pressure on it in the first place? Has anyone tried to advise him against that? Maybe the dog was a hard charger and he has burned him up? Are you sure the dog is a pig and not confused or nervous? When you are saying piggy, do you just mean slow? Maybe the dog can do great work but is just slower? Your post didnt make things real clear about what the real issues are here.

At this point it is a confidence issue.

The pup has not been burned or fried, just a bit too much too soon. Maybe going from point C without stopping at point B.

A team · Jul 26, 2011

tshuntin said:
A-team, I am sure you don't mean this negative at this young man and are probably just trying to encourage, so I am not directing this at you personally or anyone else. Others in this thread have wanted to be pretty critical of this young man without knowing much information, but are certainly quick to pass judgement. This is a real thing out there.

Could this type of attitude from some people be one of the bigger reasons young people have a difficult time getting involved and staying involved in our sport?

Encourage, build up, guide, help, support, mentor, and grow our sport.

As for washing a young dog out... Me personally, there are several things that could cause me to wash a dog out and some of those could be apparent at a young age.

I don't believe the group ever becomes negative, if we do step over the line there is always someone within the group to quickly real it in and become the voice of reason.

At the end of the day I do believe the group has been "encouraged, built up, helped in more ways than one, mentored, and with new people being added by the month I do believe as a group we are growing the sport.

Thank you for your opinion.

A team · Jul 26, 2011

BonMallari said:
No you arent justified ..it's not your dog, its not your decision..unless there was some oath of allegiance or the dog was being trained by committee...Good Natured ribbing..ok, but grief may be pushing it and peer pressure has ruined more dogs and dog training relationships

if the young man was married to someone that the group liked but the marriage was not in the cards for him would you be justified in giving him grief;-)

Fair enough.

Washing a PUPPY out

Lenore

KwickLabs

Red Barn Retrievers

Howard N

MarkyMark

Jacob Hawkes

KwickLabs

Alex

Stan b

cpmm665

tshuntin

tshuntin

frontier

cpmm665

RF2

A team

A team

A team

A team

A team

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