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How many do force to over pile?

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Tim Fitzgerald

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Just curious...
Issue is my dog handles perfectly on basic t / double but once he gets out there 80 yards or so, he seems to be self employed and has whistle refusals on hard overs. I have tried to correct this through attrition but doesnt seem to be working. I have been told to whistle sit, nic, over..., I have been told to nic him as soon as he starts to turn in the wrong direction, and I have been told to force to over pile., im just kind of confused... I have lardy and farmer and don't recall force over pile. Dog is 15 month blm. And before anyone mentions it, 100 yard rope is out of the question. Looking for some constructive feedback for those that have worked through this.
 
#2 ·
skeeter1 said:
Just curious...
Issue is my dog handles perfectly on basic t / double but once he gets out there 80 yards or so, he seems to be self employed and has whistle refusals on hard overs. I have tried to correct this through attrition but doesnt seem to be working. I have been told to whistle sit, nic, over..., I have been told to nic him as soon as he starts to turn in the wrong direction, and I have been told to force to over pile., im just kind of confused... I have lardy and farmer and don't recall force over pile. Dog is 15 month blm. And before anyone mentions it, 100 yard rope is out of the question. Looking for some constructive feedback for those that have worked through this.
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Right off the bat without more info, just follow him out after you send. Pretty much all novice dogs will cast better if you're closer to them.

Sit.......nick.... works if they have been introduced to indirect pressure earlier. Has he been?

Nick on casting movement = direct pressure and it isn't something I'd advise you to fool with here.
 
#4 ·
Lardy doesn't force to over pile with every dog as part of his program but I believe I recall either at a clinic or in the TRT dvd that he mentions that he may do it if warranted with a particular dog.

I didn't force to over pile with my last three pups. I think you really want the force to mean get going back and force to over would complicate that lesson. I'd be really patient and use attrition. Move up closer, use praise when the pup does correctly, make the over pile visable from the center line, etc.
 
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#5 ·
skeeter1 said:
Alec, could you elaborate on what you are specifically talking about when you ask if he has been introduced to indirect pressure?
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This is a step in the Lardy program. Maybe around three hand casting?
 
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#6 ·
Also you can use a lot of body motion at first for your left or right over until they start understanding with attrition. Move up like Alex suggested. I am surprised he is taking overs in T so easily as you stated and only seeing this in TT. As captianjack stated make sure he can see the side piles.
 
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Discussion starter · #8 ·
He doesn't do it on a double t. It's only when I start to stretch him out. This dog is smart to the point that I believe he is telling me screw you, it can't be that way, it's this way. I cam honestly read that in him....
 
#9 ·
So........unless you got/taught all you eventual field enforcements/correction [attrition/indirect/direct] in the TT [so you could properly handle situations like this] you kinda got a hole now.

You may be able to teach indirect on the fly now but you'll have to have a plan.
 
#11 ·
I do it with each dog I take through Basics. It's done during 3-handed casting, and reinforced when we establish the piles for T.

Evan
 
#12 ·
I like doing remote sends on pilework,and will force on overs,do it more with FTW,cause later on I want that over into water to mean something,it's the one cast that will save you if they take it,you're going home if they don't.
 
#13 ·
I had a problem with one test this year where labby would not take a left -over cast. Suffice it to say, we failed that test.

She also displayed this during the next training session. I went to indirect to achieve the result, but the next day we went to T drill and I forced on the overs to help her get the message. ;-)

I don't use direct pressure on overs during training tests, but will as stated above (on T drill). This mixture seems to work pretty well for me and labby.
 
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#14 ·
Evan said:
I do it with each dog I take through Basics. It's done during 3-handed casting, and reinforced when we establish the piles for T.

Evan
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To be clear about my practices, I do use direct pressure forcing for Over's just as I do on Back casts. It's not something I belabor, nor is it done with high pressure. It is done to deepen commitment to go when and as sent in all cases, and to provide a solid tool to deal with future no-goes.

Also, to be clear, I believe a cast is a command to "Go". A dog that fails to go when cast has 'no-goed' as surely as one that has refused to go from my side. To each his/her own. But that is how I view all this.

Evan
 
#15 ·
captainjack said:
This is a step in the Lardy program. Maybe around three hand casting?
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Alec Sparks said:
Yeah, that's when I do it. Without an intro, how's the dog supposed to know what the nick is all about? My 'guess' is that he'd just think it was a 'late' sit
nick.
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Could someone explain for me exactly what this "step" is to introduce indirect? I don't see it in my Lardy books, and don't remember it in the tapes. No time to watch the whole series over to find it! Thanks.
 
#16 ·
No time to watch the whole series over to find it!

You won't like what you're about to read: watch the whole DVD/tape series over again.

In fact, do it before the start of each training season (for those of us who have a "training season"). ;-)
 
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#17 ·
Phil, if I watch the video every day I will never have time for a "training session":). I train every day with a few exceptions for some quality hiking with the boys! I was just trying to understand what this specific "step" referred to.
 
#18 · (Edited)
2tall said:
Phil, if I watch the video every day I will never have time for a "training session":). I train every day with a few exceptions for some quality hiking with the boys! I was just trying to understand what this specific "step" referred to.
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LOL He said "season" not "session"!
There's an article about direct and indirect pressure in Vol. III of lardy articles. It comes up early on in the DVDs.
 
#20 ·
I have been complaining about needing to get new glasses for a long time now. THat's it, I am going to!

Mitty,I did read the article in the Vol III . I know what direct and indirect pressure mean and how to apply them. I was referring to a specific "step" that was mentioned by Alec and CaptainJack that introduced the concept to the dog. Both talked about it in reference to helping the OP utilize the concept. I am probably just reading way more into than is there. I am bad about that. Some call it anal:rolleyes:.
 
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