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I know you'll all dismiss this because competitive obedience has nothing to do with field work (;)), but a blog I read spent a majority of this past year dealing with trial anxiety with her Malinois.

Is starts in about February and continues through the summer and partly into fall: http://exercisefinished.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

One thing I like that she brings up is, you know how you always hear the saying "trial like you train?" I can't find the exact post I'm thinking of, but she turns that around to "train like you trial." If you get a different dog on trial day, you need to figure out how to make that dog show up in training so you can address it.
 
I gotta ask,,, How many nationally competitive dogs aren't trial or collar wise?? Do you think those dogs are really that stupid?? Especially in light of what they've been taught and how they consistently perform.

They are obviously on a program and are trained by the best pro's and amateurs.

I always felt the trial wise, collar wise arguments were without validity in relation to our sport. There's much more to making the dog a team player and compliant in training and at trials and tests.

Angie
 
I agree, to a point. I think it's a valid concern, in that you shouldn't actively try to point out to your dog the difference between training and trialing, but depending on your dog not figuring something out (in anything, not just the difference between training and trialing, but also things like he isn't capable of jumping your dinky little 4ft fence) is not solid training. A really well trained dog KNOWS he's at a trial and still performs.
 
I truly do not wish to criticize any person here, but it is such an important issue, I felt compelled to write this post. If you have decided to follow an established, proven and documented retriever training program which uses an e-collar, it is an absolutely terrible idea to ever train without having the dog wear a live e-collar. If you do, you are teaching the dog to become collar-wise. This is a very, very bad thing to do. Intermittent use while training is a proven recipe for huge problems.

Once a decision is made to follow an e-collar training program for your dog, why in the world would you train without using an e-collar all the time? It’s fairly expensive, takes a lot of effort to condition the dog for it, and is a very effective and humane tool. People teach dogs to be “collar-wise” by saying they are using an e-collar training program, but then sometimes train without using one.

I know it’s tempting to see “how the dog will do” without the collar. Well, you can see that at the hunt test or trial. But don’t use your training sessions for that. You’ll just give the dog more opportunity to learn that the e-collar causes the correction.

It’s not logical, that dogs trained with an e-collar become trial-wise because they have been trained with an e-collar, and dogs who haven’t been trained with an e-collar become trial-wise for other reasons. Trial-wise dogs are brought about by running trials before the dog is ready to run. With both types of dogs, the cause of the problem and the solution is the same. Training with or without the e-collar has nothing to do with it, unless you have made the mistake of teaching the dog to become collar-wise by not using it occasionally.

If your dog, in training, performs significantly more difficult tests than you’ll have to run at the HT or trial, and has done so with little or no need for correction for a significant period of time, he’s ready to run a trial; not before. Dogs get “trial wise” by running before they are ready. Dogs trained with or without an e-collar get trial wise for the same reason. But e-collar program dogs get “collar-wise” when people teach them to be “collar-wise”.

It was mentioned that you don’t get an opportunity to correct the dog while wearing the e-collar in training.
Be creative and think of ways to create fair opportunities to correct your dog for something
every training session. Obviously at different ages and ability levels this will change. Using the derby level as an example, do lots of triples and even easy quads. Set up severe water cheating tests with multiple entries, utilize channels lengthwise also. Do severe switching tests, utilize more heavy cover etc., etc.. Get the dog in the habit of having to really think and analyze how he’s going to have to do the tests you set up in training. This will curb the uncontrollable enthusiasm in a constructive way. Any correction you make serves to enhance everything else a minute amount. For obedience coming to line and at the line, give your commands very quietly, under your breath, don’t repeat commands, but back them up with correction. Absolutely insist on 100% compliance on all obedience commands in training. You want your dog to be listening to you first and foremost; get the dog in that mode by training that way. Your standards must be higher than what you expect from the dog at a trial. You will never get more than you require in training, always less, so keep that in mind. Don’t ever treat your group training sessions as some kind of a trial. Never forego an opportunity to correct your dog even if your buddies dog did the test correctly and you want to show that your dog can do it also. You’re there to accomplish something, not show off.

You will get opportunities galore if you use the e-collar constantly and consistently, and proceed to train and advance the dog through a progression of more difficult tasks and set-ups.

Finally, there are certainly dogs and trainers who own and occasionally use an e-collar for some types of correction, but who are not following a complete training program utilizing the e-collar. If your experience has been with those dogs and training methods, it doesn’t matter if they sometimes train without the collar, those dogs are already collar-wise; no harm done.



While you bring up many good points that I agree with but this logic means ALL dogs that test or trial will become collar wise. I can't run a test or trial with any sort of collar. Why not during training take it off (not to see how they do) and run a little so you can teach the dog that no matter what they can and will be corrected, I can't do this at a trial. This does not mean that I won't pick a dog up during a trial or test but I think running at home with nothing around their neck has merit, we DO try to simulate a trial environment during training do we not?
 
I agree, to a point. I think it's a valid concern, in that you shouldn't actively try to point out to your dog the difference between training and trialing, but depending on your dog not figuring something out (in anything, not just the difference between training and trialing, but also things like he isn't capable of jumping your dinky little 4ft fence) is not solid training. A really well trained dog KNOWS he's at a trial and still performs.
I agree,,, It's not solid training hoping your dog doesn't figure out you're at a test or they're not wearing the collar or that they can jump the fence. Because they will figure out two if not all three.

I think the reason many dogs and handlers have a hard time at test and trials is that neither are ready for the excitement and the distraction of that excitement. Focus goes right out the window along with the steering wheel. Mayhem then moves in.

Angie
 
While you bring up many good points that I agree with but this logic means ALL dogs that test or trial will become collar wise. I can't run a test or trial with any sort of collar. Why not during training take it off (not to see how they do) and run a little so you can teach the dog that no matter what they can and will be corrected, I can't do this at a trial. This does not mean that I won't pick a dog up during a trial or test but I think running at home with nothing around their neck has merit, we DO try to simulate a trial environment during training do we not?
It does have merit and it's place. I would have never believed it until a very prominent pro that I was training with that day had us train some of the dogs without the collar. I then found out his mentor did the same. Made me a believer.

You gotta keep an open mind when you're training dogs. If you've never tried some of these suggestions because the program you're on dictates otherwise,,, you'll never know. There's lots of good ideas out there that you maybe afraid of trying but have a lot of merit. Don't knock it if you haven't personally tried it...

Angie
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
I'm glad I started this thread as I feel that all comments are useful. Keep them coming!
 
Angie, I believe that is the first time anyone has agreed with me on this forum.....thanks! I have almost every training program and or book that I have found, I have worked with some AM's, Pro's and clubs. I go to trials and test sometimes just to watch. I watch the dogs and handlers, just to pick up on the subleties(sp). I try very hard to learn all I can and try to use what fits my style of training and what I feel works for the individual dog that I may be working with. There is so much that goes in to this that no ONE program works for every person and every dog. You have to be able to read the dog and do what works on that given moment, that is why so many mistakes are made (even by the best) and we, along with the dog must learn from them and move on. I firmly believe that a lot of dogs are running before they are ready, I know I have and that is one mistake I will try not to repeat.
 
Also a dog will give you plenty of information on how they'll perform at a test or trial in training. You're just not receptive to that information... Every little nuance that a dog show's in training will be enhanced and magnified at a trial or test. ie,,, foot pumping, activity in the holding blind, poor heeling to the mat,,, exaggerated head movements, slight vocalizations, thin on water etc. The list is endless. All those behaviors can mean big trouble at a trial or test.

Dogs tell you everything you need to know about the way they'll perform at a trial. You just need to pay attention to detail and believe what you see.

Your welcome Ed,,, :D

Angie
 
... If you have decided to follow an established, proven and documented retriever training program which uses an e-collar, it is an absolutely terrible idea to ever train without having the dog wear a live e-collar. If you do, you are teaching the dog to become collar-wise. ...
This is what Lardy teaches as well. Keep the collar on. The dog will need a correction sometime in training and, even though the collar is on, you can reach out and touch them up close if you want to.
 
Originally posted by Ed Hogan -
"While you bring up many good points that I agree with but this logic means ALL dogs that test or trial will become collar wise. I can't run a test or trial with any sort of collar. Why not during training take it off (not to see how they do) and run a little so you can teach the dog that no matter what they can and will be corrected, I can't do this at a trial. This does not mean that I won't pick a dog up during a trial or test but I think running at home with nothing around their neck has merit, we DO try to simulate a trial environment during training do we not?"

I respectfully disagree. Not all dogs will become collar-wise or trial-wise, only those who are entered before they are ready. But there is a real difference between collar-wise and trial-wise. Again, dogs get trial-wise because they are entered before they are ready. Dogs get collar-wise if we teach them to be collar-wise by sometimes training without an e-collar. Those dogs that are truly ready to run, may not win or place; they might have to handle on a mark, or have a big hunt on a mark, or cheat water a little and miss a mark, but their fundamentals are sound, and the fact that they didn't get corrected at the trial isn't significant to them because it wasn't something you'd necessarily give a correction for in training. Dogs that aren't ready to run a trial are out of control in the field, break, aren't yet capable of running the tests, switch, refuse to go on a blind, refuse to stop on a whistle, refuse to enter the water and generally do all sorts of things that you would correct in training for sure. So, train, with the best tools available, then run when ready. Yes, in training, you do teach the dog that he will be corrected, do it with the best tool you have. You can't correct a dog at a trial whether you use an e-collar or not. Running without one on in training is of no value, worse it will be the start of a huge problem that will take a long, long time to overcome, (if ever), instead of allowing you to continue productive progress towards your ultimate goals. I've seen the end result of both approaches through the years and the results consistently reinforce my opinion.
 
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