Movement on Line

John Gassner · May 26, 2012

Some really good responses so far! I think we all want a dog with a "ton of go" that also exhibits a "ton of whoa".

I personally don't like reading too much into the rules and making my own. I don't drop, or even ding dogs for minor line movement or slight creeping. A dog should want to reposition itself to best see the birds fall. Our job as handlers and trainers is to not let them get too carried away with this and strike some balance.

I can find plenty of "faults" with dogs not being perfect on the line or in the field. My job when judging is to find the one with the most positives such as marking. I try not to crucify dogs that give a little whimper on the send or take a half step in front of the handler to better see the birds fall.

Mick has hit on my real question. I know how most of what I consider good judges feel about dog generated infractions.

What I really want to know is how much movement should be allowed by the handler after they have signalled for the birds and before being released by the judges? If the dog creeps 5 feet, should the handler be allowed to creep with the dog? What about dogs swinging for the flyer second, when the flyer is actually third bird down?

I recently witnessed an AA stake where several handlers walked up several steps in order to block out the flyer station after calling for the birds. One handler went so far as to walk around his dog and then block out the flyer by getting to that side after calling for the birds. Another handler actually stepped on her dog's tail accidentally while miving around to block the flyer.

I know how I feel about this and how I will handle it should it happen to me in the future. I am curious as to how others view this. What rules are you using to form your position?

John

Breck · May 26, 2012

If you saw handlers doing that the judges should have immediately asked the handler to put the lead on their dog and excuse them.
This is one area where the handlers actions, not the dogs warrants elimination from the stake. Block dogs view of a fall and you're history. This includes while on honor.

John Gassner · May 26, 2012

Breck said:
If you saw handlers doing that the judges should have immediately asked the handler to put the lead on their dog and excuse them.
This is one area where the handlers actions, not the dogs warrants elimination from the stake. Block dogs view of a fall and you're history. This includes while on honor.

I agree with the "block the view of the fall and you're history. The difference is, the handler did not block the view of the fall, just the view of the flyer station before the bird was thrown/shot.

For example; middle bird thrown first, dog watches bird and then swings (incorrectly) to flyer. Handler blocks view of flyer station so that dog will focus on bird #2 which is right-hand bird. Handler then allows dog to see bird #3 which is left-hand flyer.

John

Breck · May 26, 2012

I didn't read your original post close enough. As long as they're not blocking the view of an actual fall I guess it's OK but if they touch their dog it could be an issue.

To your original question I don't recall if the rules address excessive movement of the handler as in following a creeper or whatever. I sure don't like watching handlers or dogs that are all over the place but admit I did get a kick watching the antics of a dog named Lefty on the line.

Ted Shih · May 27, 2012

This is what the Rule Book (page 28) says

10. When on line, a handler shall not place his dog or himself so that the dog’s full vision of the bird is blocked as it falls. This applies to the working dog and the honoring dog. Violation of this provision, if determined by the Judges to be deliberate, is sufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake.

Ted Shih · May 27, 2012

John Gassner said:
What I really want to know is how much movement should be allowed by the handler after they have signalled for the birds and before being released by the judges? If the dog creeps 5 feet, should the handler be allowed to creep with the dog? What about dogs swinging for the flyer second, when the flyer is actually third bird down?

I recently witnessed an AA stake where several handlers walked up several steps in order to block out the flyer station after calling for the birds. One handler went so far as to walk around his dog and then block out the flyer by getting to that side after calling for the birds. Another handler actually stepped on her dog's tail accidentally while miving around to block the flyer.

John

If you require that the handler stand on the mat, you eliminate alot of this stuff.

Ted Shih · May 27, 2012

John Gassner said:
One handler went so far as to walk around his dog and then block out the flyer by getting to that side after calling for the birds. Another handler actually stepped on her dog's tail accidentally while miving around to block the flyer.

John

Are you advocating penalizing a dog for his/her handler's clumsiness for stepping on the dog's tail? I don't think I want to go there.

As for stepping over a dog to block a flyer ... it looks awkward, but where does the Rule Book address it?
Moreover, given how some judges like to put a flyer up close and tight to a longer bird, so that the dogs are distracted from the long bird, I might want to figure out how to do the step over myself.

Jacob Hawkes · May 27, 2012

I'm having a very hard time with a creep being a major fault. Sorry, but that's just not @ all how I view it. They usually hurt theirselves. Others have this incredible set of peepers that can get away with it. I personally want & expect my girl to not flinch a muscle while on line. I'd have a hard time dinging a dog for creeping. Now if this dog was extremely vocal, it would be noted. That said, show me good to great work in each series. I'd be much more concerned about bringing total failures back to the next series & them placing, than a dog that doesn't stay on the mat.

Ted Shih · May 27, 2012

Jacob Hawkes said:
I'm having a very hard time with a creep being a major fault. Sorry, but that's just not @ all how I view it.

How does the Rule Book view it?

Jacob Hawkes · May 27, 2012

Could be a minor to medium fault. Unless the dog was extremely vocal, I wouldn't fault the dog. If I can't come up with more separation than what a dog does online, I shouldn't be judging. Just my opinion.

John Gassner · May 27, 2012

Ted Shih said:
Are you advocating penalizing a dog for his/her handler's clumsiness for stepping on the dog's tail? I don't think I want to go there.

As for stepping over a dog to block a flyer ... it looks awkward, but where does the Rule Book address it?
Moreover, given how some judges like to put a flyer up close and tight to a longer bird, so that the dogs are distracted from the long bird, I might want to figure out how to do the step over myself.

No I am not advocating anything about accidentally stepping on or touching a dog. Not so sure about handler moving so much that they can't help but come in contact with the dog. Dog bumping into a handler is nothing. Handler bumping into dog probably nothing unless the handler is moving around so much that it becomes inevitable.

I realize there is nothing that spells this out exactly. AKC officials have expressed opinion about intimidation. It's just an opinion, but I hate using intimidation or threatening gesture as a catch all when nothing else quite fits. A member of the RAC has also weighed in saying this should not be permitted.

My question remains; How much is too much movement, or what is allowed by the handler? Surely Ted, there is a point where it becomes excessive? As I mentioned earlier and you restated, the blocked view of a bird as it falls does not pertain. My thoughts are along the line of keeping hands quietly by your side part of the book. I would think this might also include your body which your hands and arms are attached to?

I know foot shuffling is commonly employed to help get a dog to swing its head while on the line and the birds have been called for. How much is too much or is there maybe no such thing?

Ted I agree with the mats to a degree. They are a great starting point but they don't prevent creeping or movement by dog or handler. Most dogs tend to be more obedient when a mat is present. This may be enough reason for judges to consider not using one sometimes. If the handler and or dog returns to the mat before the dog is sent to retrieve the birds then they have merely crept and not broke!

John

Breck · May 27, 2012

Next time you have several wild childred in your line up try this. Have dogs honor just before they run, in the holding blind, off lead, no talking. Half of em probably wont be able to stand it. Lol

Ted Shih · May 27, 2012

John

I think that there is a difference between what I like and what the Rule Book establishes. I like a dog that sits and watches the birds without a lot of drama. I like a handler that is quiet and graceful on the line. But, that is my personal preference. Others differ. To me, these are tie breaker issues, not call back issues. However, if I saw a dog that was unruly, noisy and a general pain in the butt in three series - I might express my opinion to my co-judge that the dog should not see a fourth series - in the same vein as I would treat a dog with poor style. Repeat offenses make minor faults, moderate, then serious faults.

To the extent that the RAC or the AKC thinks that the Rule Book prohibits the "dance", etc. - I disagree. Of course, we could always change the Rule Book, but that would only continue what I believe to be the RAC's path of over management.

I am far more concerned about issues of dog safety, visibility of guns and birds, the ability of dogs to hear and see their handlers, and the ability of handlers to see their dogs, than I am about these issues. If we were going to legislate, I would argue for legislation about these fundamentals rather then handler/dog movement.

Overall, I think that the handlers who are bouncing all over the line, are not particularly effective. They aren't usually around by the fourth series - if the tests are sufficiently difficult. So, I am not inclined to toss them for line manner issues, but rather let them self eliminate for performance in the field issues. There are very few dogs that can deal with really tough tests without handler assistance. If the dog is 10 feet ahead of the handler when it is time to send, and the handler must be on the mat, well, no more Jockey influence.

If you wanted a basis in the Rule Book for elimination - as opposed to downgrading a dog's performance, you could look to page 32 of the Rule Book

The Judges may require that dogs which have so jumped or crept forward be brought back to heel before being sent for their birds. A handler so ordered should bring his dog to a position satisfactory to the Judges and remain with him in such position until his number is called. In tests including honoring, care should be exercised to treat creeping, on the part of either dog, in a manner not grossly unfair to the other.

Frankly, if I thought the honoring dog/handler were making such a commotion as to interfere with the working dog, I would tell the handler to honor on lead, and drop the dog

As for the mat, I like it because it is uniform

If you say both feet on the mat, there is no confusion (or game playing) Before mats came into vogue, I remember using painted rocks to establish the line and watching pros moving them to widen the strike zone. The first time it happened, I thought it was accidental. The next time, I knew it was deliberate and told the pro to knock it off.

I have done the tufts of grass with tape on them, only to watch the pros "accidentally" step on them to widen the strike zone.

Who needs to police that stuff

Also, if the dogs get wet, the mat helps you keep the handling area from becoming a bog

So I am a mat man.

Bridget Bodine · May 27, 2012

Jacob Hawkes said:
Could be a minor to medium fault. Unless the dog was extremely vocal, I wouldn't fault the dog. If I can't come up with more separation than what a dog does online, I shouldn't be judging. Just my opinion.

So you only judge part of the dog's performance?? Are the dogs not judged from the time the judge says come on down?

junbe · May 27, 2012

Earlier this month I judged an Open with over 70 starters. The line manners of both the dogs and handlers were very good. Not one dog was asked to reheel. I use the mat with the instructions in the last holding blind. Handlers on mat during all marks. Dogs are to be sent from the mat on blinds.
If a problem did arise, I would use the rule book as guidance in my decision. Under Trial Procedures you will find “When coming to line to be tested, and while on line, the dog and handler should assume such positions as may be directed by the judges.” Also you will find “When ordered to retrieve, the handler shall direct his dog from any position designated by the judges.”
In Line Manners, you will find “During the period from the moment the handler signals readiness for the birds to be thrown until the dog’s number is called, the handler of the working dog or honoring dog shall remain silent.” I may add the handler cannot initiate any noise, both vocal or otherwise, which may include jiggling a choke chain in their pocket, buzzing a mini-prod in their pocket, or stomping their feet. Also you will find no handler shall … or use any other equipment or threatening gestures in such a way as a threat in steadying or CONTROLLING A DOG.
In the Recommendations, that includes faults, you will find the following statement: “The faults included in this classification are those which are observed most often at retriever trials. Others may occur and this classification may serve as a helpful guide on these occasions as to determine the relative importance of such offenses. Finally, the primary consideration of judges in respect to the importance of the faults listed here, as well as others which may occur, is to determine to the extent to which any of the such infractions would detract from the full enjoyment of ‘an ordinary day’s shoot.’”
All of these problems should be discussed with the co-judge prior to judging and the degree of penalty that would be assessed.

Jack
,

Jacob Hawkes · May 27, 2012

Bridget Bodine said:
So you only judge part of the dog's performance?? Are the dogs not judged from the time the judge says come on down?

As I stated earlier, I expect mine to not flinch a muscle. When she does move, she's gone, AKA she broke. A little creep or a big creep does not really concern me that much. Now a dog that's vocal (Not a little whining. That's totally different.) to an annoyance is another thing for myself. Do I prefer watching dogs sit still or just a tad bit of movement? You bet. I certainly care more about marking & blinds than a little animation on the line.

Wade Thurman · May 28, 2012

Ted Shih said:
If you require that the handler stand on the mat, you eliminate alot of this stuff.

Ted,

I like what Mitch had to say about the Mat and your feelings are well taken.

Are you more stringent on your use of the Mat in the AA stakes or in ALL stakes? I'm curious to get your thoughts on the use of the Mat in the Minors.

Thanks

BonMallari · May 28, 2012

think of the mat like the batters box in baseball terminology...you can move up and back, side to side on either side of home plate (the dog), stepping out of the batters box could lead to being called out by the umpire (judge)

jeff evans · May 28, 2012

Breck said:
Next time you have several wild childred in your line up try this. Have dogs honor just before they run, in the holding blind, off lead, no talking. Half of em probably wont be able to stand it. Lol

The first open I ever ran Bert Carlson was judging and he did just what you said. Dog honored before he retrieved, watched the birds then went back to the hold.

John Robinson · May 29, 2012

John Gassner said:
No I am not advocating anything about accidentally stepping on or touching a dog. Not so sure about handler moving so much that they can't help but come in contact with the dog. Dog bumping into a handler is nothing. Handler bumping into dog probably nothing unless the handler is moving around so much that it becomes inevitable.

I realize there is nothing that spells this out exactly. AKC officials have expressed opinion about intimidation. It's just an opinion, but I hate using intimidation or threatening gesture as a catch all when nothing else quite fits. A member of the RAC has also weighed in saying this should not be permitted.

My question remains; How much is too much movement, or what is allowed by the handler? Surely Ted, there is a point where it becomes excessive? As I mentioned earlier and you restated, the blocked view of a bird as it falls does not pertain. My thoughts are along the line of keeping hands quietly by your side part of the book. I would think this might also include your body which your hands and arms are attached to?

I know foot shuffling is commonly employed to help get a dog to swing its head while on the line and the birds have been called for. How much is too much or is there maybe no such thing?

Ted I agree with the mats to a degree. They are a great starting point but they don't prevent creeping or movement by dog or handler. Most dogs tend to be more obedient when a mat is present. This may be enough reason for judges to consider not using one sometimes. If the handler and or dog returns to the mat before the dog is sent to retrieve the birds then they have merely crept and not broke!

John

I have always been curious as to how the "dragging foot shuffle" technique evolved. To me it is often excessive and unnatural, but by common practice it is just ignored and assumed to be an accepted handling technique. Since it seems to be acceptable, I do it myself to little effect when my dog has locked on the flayer while memory bird #2 is being thrown off to the right. I really don't know how much would be too much, but it has been my experience that if a handler is going crazy with the shuffle, it's because his dog is paying no attention to him and is about to eliminate himself due to poor work anyway.

Regarding the mat, I like it both as a handler and a judge, but like you, I noticed something last week where they did it the old way with ribbons on bushes instead of a mat. Both of my dogs who are usually rock steady on a mat, didn't have that solid reference line and crept a bit on me. Not too much, just a little, but enough for me to notice.

John

Movement on Line

John Gassner

Breck

John Gassner

Breck

Ted Shih

Ted Shih

Ted Shih

Jacob Hawkes

Ted Shih

Jacob Hawkes

John Gassner

Breck

Ted Shih

Bridget Bodine

junbe

Jacob Hawkes

Wade Thurman

BonMallari

jeff evans

John Robinson

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