If a dog has to handle on that many marks it seems easy to make the arguement that it is not up to snuff on marking

From what I hear, handling twice will get you dropped most times, so more then twice, you were probably lucky to still be in.

 

While it's true that there is no MANDATORY elimination for two handles in the Master test level, MOST Master judges like to see a dog demonstrate the ability to count past one, more than once.... ;-)

That said, all handles are NOT equal...and that's all I'm going to say about that.

Marking is of primary importance regards,

k g

 

all marks are not equal either. what about the case where a dog (A) is "in the corridor" of the direction of the fall, and works the area just beyond the fall very hard and diligently. maybe its a waterlogged duck sunk in the mud as well. finally, you have to tweet and with one whistle bring the dog in 10 yds and he gets the bird.

should that be a zero? compare that to a dog (B) that ran wide on the same mark and then immediately headed over to the previous fall area, took 5 whistles with 3 refusals to finally find the bird. clearly dog A marked the bird far better than dog B. so maybe a judge gives B a zero but realizes A was really not that far off, so he gives dog A a 4.

now assume the exact same thing happens in the next series, and all other marks in the test are 10's for each and all other criteria are equal as well.

would it be out of line for dog A to pass and dog B to fail? sure seems fair and equitable to me - and also very feasible to happen quite commonly.

now i am not a judge and have not attended a judging seminar, but this just seems logical to me.

for the record, i have one senior pass and one master pass with two handles.

 

It's not just a West Coast thing, and it's not set in stone.

Handling alone, doesn't necessarily mean the dog failed to mark the fall.

Handling to the AOF, is different, than a quick handle to help out a dog that is having a hard time digging the bird out.

The real question is, whether the dog got itself to the AOF. If the answer is yes, than the dog did a credible job of marking.

Handling in the AOF, might indicate the dog is weak on perseverance, but not on marking.

 

if it's not called madatory in the rules, its's not mandatory...

 

My experience is that you get one handle in masters unless there is a mark that causes a lot of trouble for most dogs. That will give you a second handle. At least in the tests I have run, judges try to set up marks that should be marks.

 

It all depends on the situation. Handling on memory birds is more accepted that handling on go birds. Seen many master test with dogs passing with two handles. Depends on the type of handle also. Most of us judges would rather see a clean handle instead of a huge hunt .(aka SOB- Stumbled on bird) Gorilla hunts and sloppy handles will usually get you dropped. Sometimes a quick check down handle on a high rolling dog that is going to blow by a bird is needed at times. It all depends on what dog, what judge, what situation. No clear absolutes here.

Scott

 

I've run tests with a hot blind 20 to 30 yds behind the mark and if you have a fast dog that runs with in a few feet of the bird but blows past it you would normally let him work back to the bird but with the blind there you wouldn't want to take a chance and you would stop him and handle him back to the bird.

 

I have passed tests where I have handled twice and I have passed MANY dogs that have handled twice on marks. As previously stated, it really depends on the mark and the situation. It is not a black/white thing. Handling to the AOF versus a quick handle in the AOF; a bird that falls somewhat shorter or longer than all the other birds in the area; a bird that has become difficult to see due to weather or lighting conditions; birds that may drift, etc. Also depends on the quality of handling and what all the other dogs are doing. If a huge percent of the dogs are handling on the mark, it may be visually difficult for the dog to see or to tell depth. Even using set up dogs and test dog, sometimes these things are not apparent until the test starts.

I have been judging for over 15 yrs now and I don't believe I have met any other judge who had a 2 handle and you're out rule.

Regards
Dawn

 

Handling twice on a triple will most times get you dropped. I heard a lot of judges say one atleast one clean triple. It again all depends on BOTH judges and the situation.

 

Most Master judges want to see @ least 1 clean Triple or @ least 1 clean marking series........from my experience any way....

 

That is right and you run three in Master.

 

Al you old fart you know dern good and well that ain't true.

I can remember a BUNCH of times where we built a "trap" into a test- not to see if we could catch the team but to see what happened afterwards. More often than not the solution meant a handle to get out of the pickle which we were more than willing to accept as a suitable resolution to the problem presented. If after presenting a problem that is likely to require handler intervention to resolve a dog has trouble on one of the marking series and needs a little help - no worries (as long as the 4 legged team member remembers his/her manners). Am I going to watch Sir Pops a lot handle on more than one mark in a given series- pretty doubtful (along the lines of NFG Happen). Am I going to set a hard and fast number of burds that you can handle on in a given Master test- not on your sweet bippy- depends entirely on the situations presented.

The long standing rule is " Handlers handle, Dogs dog and Judges judge"

Even God grades on a curve regards

Bubba

 

What to you think about the trend on the west coast for the manditory dropping of a dog from competition if it handles more than two times on marks........Even though this action is not referred to or required in the AKC Hunting Test Regulations.

I remember this "trend" of judges preferring to see not more than two handles in Master when I was running hunt tests 12 years ago. So what has changed and what is wrong with it? And as many have mentioned, there are lots of things to take into consideration. Nothing is mandAtory.

Didja have a bad weekend? Would it make you feel better to talk about it? We're here for you...

 

It all depends on what the definition of "is", is.

I can understand how a judge would not want to see too much handling on marks because (IMHO) marks are designed to test a dogs marking ability. If it has too be handled, it didn't mark the bird too well.

Judging is more art than science (thank goodness).

FWIW (not much) I slept in a Holiday Inn Express

Master Hunting dogs that require excessive handling
on marks and blinds, that refuse voice or whistle
commands, or appear unwilling to perform their work
must be viewed in a different light than Senior Hunting
dogs where a degree of tolerance is necessary for those
not-so-seasoned Senior dogs. Master Hunting dogs must
exhibit those qualities expected in a truly finished and
experienced hunting companion.

 

So if a dog swings off a mark because of a whistle or a shot from another stake and has to handle he can't mark? That is a big iffy conclusion to say if a dog handles he can't mark. AKC says excessive, what is excessive?

 

That is one of those extenuation circumstances....To answer your question about what is "excessive" ....If you sit in the chair you will find that out real fast .....Steve S

 

i think it's impossible to have a carved in stone rule on the number of handles relative to dropping the dog for poor marking. there are too many variables.

it comes down to test design and judging what is acceptable for a hunting retriever relative to what you have set up. not all triples are equal. all terrain and/or ponds are not equal in the difficulty presented to the dog to reach the AOF un-diverted. add to that wind shifts, lighting changes, and drag back scent. are the marks interrupted by a diversion bird? a blind? both?

setting up and judging Master tests is not as easy as "1 bird there, another over there, and the flyer here".

running a Master test successfully involves a great deal of decision making for the handler and the dog, as well as teamwork between the two. handling on a mark is often the way to get the job done acceptably.-Paul

 

What is the consensus among hunt test folks running in OK and TX? I'm asking this out of curiosity mostly since I've only run a few hunt tests. In our neck of the woods no master passes with more than one handle from my limited experience.

Cornfused regards,
fp

 

As others have said, I "like" to see one clean series. Handling twice in one series is pretty iffy. Handling once in two series... Depends on how much of a mark was shown before the handle. Plus, according to the rules, I must score lower if handled on a mark. What else was involved in why the dog did not get the bird? To me, I can not say 2 handles and you are out. What did you really see before the handle in the 4 abilities? Not did the dog have to handle twice.

 

manditory dropping of a dog from competition if it handles more than two times on marks

If the question is on dropping a dog with 3 handles on marks in a master test, I would be happy with judges that would let ya handle just the twice! Three handles would be like Christmas. Who needs a dog that can count past 2 anymore if I get a whistle per series!

 

Any decent judge is going to pick-up on an "extenuating circumstance" (I hope).

Having said that, I rarely see anyone get a ribbon with two handles on my circuit. It happens, but rarely.

 

Isn't handling on a mark a failure?
Isn't the the training goal for the dogs to find the marks unassissted?
If you handled on a mark on training do you consider it a success?
If you handled even on one mark in training to you consider that seried successful?

In my experience is that it was and is common to pass a Master test on two handles. Am I the only one that feels embarassed to get a ribbon as a symbol of success at the end of the weekend for failing two out of three series? Further am I the only one embarassed often when my dog nails all the marks and cleans the blinds and gets the same orange ribbon as the another dozen or more dogs that essentially failed two thirds if the same test?

They want to give a MNH title for dogs than can routinely fail like that?

 

Isn't handling on a mark a failure?
Isn't the the training goal for the dogs to find the marks unassissted?
If you handled on a mark on training do you consider it a success?
If you handled even on one mark in training to you consider that seried successful?

QUOTE]

Idealy in training I agree. In a "test" the abilities should be judged to the point of the handle. Then the handle with a lower score given as appropriate. We are judging to a standard. The standard is not an A.

 

If a dog took a nice line to the bird and missed it by a few feet in heavy cover but didn't try to hunt for the bird and started to leave the area and was handled back to the bird I would mark them down more on perseverance then on marking if the dog runs toward an old fall or out in no mans land and has to be handled to the mark then I would score it way down on marking

 

I agree with #20. The "unwritten rule" has been around for at least 20 years here in the Mid-Atlantic states.
I think that it was created by Master judges that thought it was a quick and easy way to eliminate dogs.
If a dog goes directly to the AOF, in my mind he has marked the bird. If a "quick and clean" handle is used successfully, then it is of little consequence on my score sheet. Other factors considered would be bird sequence , wind change, weather change, drag back, etc.
The first dog to run a series does not get the same test series as the last dog to run the test series. The sun, wind and scenting conditions have all changed over time.
That's why judges and judgment are required.
And as an afterthought, the poster,(#25) that is so righteous regarding dogs that qualify with minimal scores needs to move on to the FT game. MH can mean Master, but can also mean "mediocre hunter".

 

I think it's BS. Can't have a blanket rule like that because there are too many variables at play. Let the judges do thier job and judge the dog work.

A quick handle is prefered to a long hunt. And teamwork should apply to marks as well as blinds.