You can't attribute any or all the cruciate or joint issues to the stud. The dogs Dam may have just as much culpability.

Please be careful in naming dogs and casting aspersions

 

The research is still in progress. The jury is out. The University of Wisconsin is still looking for dogs in their study as far as I know.

 

Bump back to top.

I've spoken with the original author. The intent is not to call out talented dogs in our game as culprits.

The intent is to get at whether or not CCL issues are hereditary.

I personally am aware of folks that use the term "Cruciate Disease".

To my mind, if it is hereditary, it's probably not as simple as EIC or CNM, where either they're "affected" or they're not.

Chris

 

I think there is a big difference in a dog tearing their ccl through injury and the dog that has wear and tear. The dangerous part is trying to differentiate--I've owned a few dogs out of some of the most popular studs out there. The majority of those studs have had tears I have since found out--I'm willing to take my chances.

 

Wait until more research is done. Our dogs are put under a lot of stress causing wear & tear on joints, ligaments etc. My pup at 15m has already learned agility & does the FT & HRC. That to me is very stressful to his body while he is growing. I take extreme care to be sure where he is running negates any further damage than just the normal from running at this stage. Also I would stress warming up & cooling down your dog before running him will really help prevent injuries. You can't blame it all on the parents! JMO

 

I know that Oregon State U is doing a study as well. I took my dog in to be part of the study. Don't know where they are in the process.

 

Not gonna say anything on the heredity factor but I have seen a strong correlation of tears in dogs that have been spayed or nuetered at a young age....Just a thought....Jim

 

Was there not a study done that was trying to see if there was a relationship between "early spaying and neutering" and the incidence of cruciate tears in our dogs???

 

Don't know ....just something I've noticed in the last 30 years...Jim

 

The two that I know personally who had acl tears , were both female, and tore at under 12 mos of age. Neither was spayed. Come to think of it, any of the other (labs) that Im aware of, have not been spayed and tore theirs as adult dogs.
One friend having his girl done today, I believe she is spayed, but not sure of what age she was done.
I dont believe it is based upon solely one factor (ie heredity), but many factors, conditioning, excercise, physical condition , etc... I would suspect that heredity has something to do with it-but maybe not directly, but instead of the conformation that was handed down to individual dogs via parentage,genes,etc.....

 

I've also noticed the posty legged ones are also prone.....just observations..Jim

 

Mine was less than 4 mos old when she tore hers. I still have no idea what I'm going to do with her.

 

Of the 2 I know of personally, both were at 3-4yrs. both a result of quick turns on slippery surfaces, and way too many retrieves (multiple kids throwing bumpers non-stop for hours; one into a backyard pool and one on wet grass, both dog slipped & crashed). One was a Lab and one was a Chessie, neither of their parents had any issues. They only repaired one side which lasted for the rest of their lives. Famous quote "Oh we assumed he'd get tired and quit." Umm not with these breedings they won't; sometimes you've got to be smarter than the dog.

I believe that there is some heredity involved but more on the line of conformation angle of the joint which is passed down; Still the really young one's usually seem to be a wild young dogs, who might not be done growing; and simply do too much.

 

It has been suggested that the angulation of the leg is what is hereditary, and certain angulations, or more correctly, lack of, make the dogs more prone to injury. If the leg is straighter, it is missing the shock absorber necessary to prevent injury. The first shows a dog with lack of rear angles, the second shows correct angulation. It's easy to see why the second is preferable to prevent injuries.

 

If I understand my note right, Is ACL and CCL same thing? We just had ACL TPLO surgery, I thought CCL was front leg.
Thanks

 

I believe the correct term in dogs is CCL, in humans, it's ACL.
Here's a pretty good article:
http://www.caninekneesurgery.com/acl-or-ccl/

 

K thanks. I have Anterior Cruciant Ligament (ACL) and Cranial Cruciante Ligament (CCL) in my notes

 

CCL=Dogs
ACL=Humans

The way I was told by my ortho surgeon before he took $3500 from me.

 

Was this for one joint or two? I ask because we happen to have the most expensive "free dog" in the county. Our first Shelter dog turned out to have a torn cruciate, requiring TPLO funded by my bank account.

I made the mistake of complaining about the cost. About 3 months post-rehab, she popped the other.

Here's a license plate I don't want to apply for - but many of us could probably display such a plate:

 

Thanks. Im sure he was trying to xplain in my simple head. Learn something new every day

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15577502 incrased ACL with neutering or spaying early
http://www.atftc.com/health/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf summary on changes in bone length

I personally had 2 littermate males that went to homes actually in the same area. One was neutered at 14 mo and the other before 3 months. The early neuter was extremely posty in the real end whereas the older neuter had correct angulation.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15577502 incrased ACL with neutering or spaying early
http://www.atftc.com/health/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf summary on changes in bone length

I personally had 2 littermate males that went to homes actually in the same area. One was neutered at 14 mo and the other before 3 months. The early neuter was extremely posty in the real end whereas the older neuter had correct angulation.

What is "posty"? I've never heard this term used before.-Paul

 

The effect is much more pronounced in Goldens than in Labs, FWIW
http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10977
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102241

 

Certain studs are known to produce pups with bad cruciates.

 

I believe the angles have much to do with it--is seems plausible that they are somewhat hereditary. It doesn't help that we abuse the hell out of these dogs bodies at all. I'm still not holding back from buying a dog out of a sire or dam who has had a tear or even two. Setbacks come in many forms. IMO blaming it on the sires is not fair--the bitch has plenty to do with it as well.

 

So only "posty" dogs tear CCL's?

 

No, there are many components that are being looked at. Structure is only one possible cause. There have been several areas that are being studied. Early spay/neuter with hormone loss, spayed and neutered anytime especially with lack of exercise and obesity, there is an immunity route that is being looked at, possible heredity due to structure, hard going large dogs also have a tendency to have ccl problems. What we also know is younger dogs have more ccl problems than several decades ago where it was mostly an older dog problem. If there is a cause it will probably be determined to be polygenic.

 

To answer the OP's question there is no current proof that CCL injuries are genetic. There are many unsubstantiated theories, some plausible some implausible. In field trial Labradors there does seem to be a familial tendency but CCL injuries occur in virtually all breeds, shapes, and sizes. As the previous poster noted adult onset CCL injuries have been with us for a very long time albeit more frequently in the past 20 years but juvenile CCL injuries in immature dogs is a relatively new (20 year +/-) phenomenon.

 

Popular breedings going to field trial peeps that are going to put those pups to the extreme challenges for pretty much the entirety of their life might explain the familial,AND the extreme tasks needed to compete these days, even with the Derby dogs.

 

a popular but implausible and unlikely cause, we didn't just start extreme retriever athelitics, if that was the cause every sled dog would have cruciate problems

 

They told me at Dr. Milton's office, Greyhounds are the only breed with no CCLs.

 

And the only breed without hip dysplasia

 

There has been at least one study done that concluded that Tibial Plateau Angle is not a significant predictor of CCL injury.
http://www.jaaha.org/doi/abs/10.5326/0410117

 

There has been at least one study done that concluded that Tibial Plateau Angle is not a significant predictor of CCL injury.
http://www.jaaha.org/doi/abs/10.5326/0410117

Dr. Milton said, the angles on my dog's knees were actually better than average.