I don’t want to anthropomorphize, but it’s like he’s depressed that he has to follow orders rather than do whatever he wants. It’s not as if he hates bumpers or retrieving—quite the contrary. He goes nuts with excitement when he sees the bumpers come out and when he’s given retrieves. The bad attitude only starts when I make him play by MY rules

There are alot of reasons why a dog swings his butt out when delivering bumpers or birds,
One of them is of course conflict with the handler,,,or bad training practices which result in this behavior

How are you teaching and enforcing him to play buy your rules?
Thats what I would be thinking about.
Pete

 

Hmmmm, I don't know how to respond without detailing every last moment of a training session. I guess the short way to say it is that I follow the training program in the Fowl Dawgs DVD series, and I teach and enforce as close as I possibly can to the way shown there.

What practices would you feel fall under the bad ones you alluded to? I'm not disputing the fact I might be using some--I just honestly don't know what they'd be.

The butt swinging isn't so severe as the low head angle and lack of eye contact when he approaches me. He'll get a yard or two away on the return and he'll lower and turn his head (and often his body) as he comes to a stops and sits in front of me.

I'll admit that I might give him too much pressure as he gets close to me, because he's always been hard to control once he's within a few yards...for the longest time he wouldn't respond to any commands in that zone. So I increaded the pressure till I got him to sit, heel, etc near me. Left to his own devices, he wouldn't obey any of these commands and would either ram the bumper into my knees or begin running around me with the bumper in his mouth.

 

Are you correcting this behavior with an e-collar?

 

What behavior?

The low head posture, butt swinging, etc.? No.

Refusals to sit, heel, etc.? Yes--sometimes with the e-collar, sometimes with the heeling stick, sometimes with a tug on the choke collar.

I should also note that the above misbehaviors aren't much of a problem anymore--presumably because I corrected them.

But now I'm left with this mopey attitude....

 

Are you yelling or scolding during any part of the training drill?

 

Every now and then, sure, but certainly not constantly or in some crazed kind of way--just a sharp "NO" when he's doing something wrong that needs to stop immediately.

 

Don't let him get away with avoidance tactics ... use the lead or whatever to prevent or correct those behaviors. Dogs will con you! Perk your training up - use praise more for a good response, give more freebies in forcing situations, throw fun bumpers after the dog gives good effort & keep your sessions shorter. But don't allow the escape behaviors like crooked sits, etc. What kind of corrections are coming before the pouting starts?

 

Any chance you are out of balance with too much yard work and not enough marks?

 

How long has he been showing this behavior during training?

Have you tried ignoring any flaws for a week and just having nothing but fun during training? I would try to be as happy and upbeat as possible for week regardless of his behavior and see if the attitude improves.

 

The same types of corrections.

Come to think of it, though, his bad attitude often starts in earnest after I've tried to get him to stop chomping or rolling the bumper, by sit-nick-sit.

Is that a mistake on my part?

 

The same types of corrections.

Come to think of it, though, his bad attitude often starts in earnest after I've tried to get him to stop chomping or rolling the bumper, by sit-nick-sit.

Is that a mistake on my part?

Maybe the dog doesn't understand the correction. Work on it in a more controlled setting (like a simple hold session) and avoid using collar pressure at first. If the dogs starts to chomp, give a quick snap up with the lead and a "sit" command. Be sure to praise the dog with light petting or verbal encouragement when the dogs holds the bumper still.

I'd be way more concerned about a dog chomping and rolling birds than bumpers in the yard. Sometimes in basics dogs get anxious and you get things like chomping and rolling that aren't "real" problems. If you pick at that during your yard drills, you may sidetrack yourself and kill your dog's attitude. Just watched a portion of the new Mike Lardy videos covering exactly that issue - chomping bumpers during force-to-pile.

 

Hmmmm, I don't know how to respond without detailing every last moment of a training session. I guess the short way to say it is that I follow the training program in the Fowl Dawgs DVD series, and I teach and enforce as close as I possibly can to the way shown there.

What practices would you feel fall under the bad ones you alluded to? I'm not disputing the fact I might be using some--I just honestly don't know what they'd be.

Its not about the program
Its about the application of it a program
Some people who use lardy,,Gramm ,Dodds Milner, or Starski or any other programs screw up their dogs,,,,but its not the program doing it ,,,it is about the person using the program..
Things you specifically are doing that dont jive with dog training weather you follow a program or not.

This is the basic equation for dog training
Correct motivation + consistancy + correct timing= a happily trained dog

everything you do with a dog falls under those 3 catagories
So if 1 or more of those is off ,,confusion creeps in and avoidance can creep in ,,bad attitudes, ect ect

The closer you get to correctness on those 3 basic ingredients the less confused and the better the attitude.

Have someone who can help you see it,,, and they can help you get where you want to go . Cant be done really over the internet,,,got have somebody there to yell at you:razz:

Pete

 

Its not about the program
Its about the application of it a program
Some people who use lardy,,Gramm ,Dodds Milner, or Starski or any other programs screw up their dogs,,,,but its not the program doing it ,,,it is about the person using the program..
Things you specifically are doing that dont jive with dog training weather you follow a program or not.

Pete,

I agree that it'd be great to have someone who knows what they're doing, watch me work with my dog and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Like you say, it's impossible over the internet.

But I do have a question about your quote I posted here. When you say "Things you specifically are doing that dont jive with dog training weather you follow a program or not," are you speaking generally about any wannabe trainer who doesn't apply a program correctly, or are you saying that something I have described about how I do things is wrong?

If so, what do you see me doing wrong based on my descriptions?

 

Jamie, he's been displaying this behavior for the past several weeks. He'd been chomping/rolling bumpers more and more, as well blowing through commands like sit or once he got close. It was like he was assuming I wanted him to come all the way to me and sit at heel (which is good in a way I suppose), but he wouldn't listen if I told him to sit in front of me.

I noticed the mopey attitude most when I started correcting these behaviors.

Jeff T, yes, I suppose some of it might have to do with too few marks and fun bumpers. Now that you say that, I recall that his attitude and posture is markedly better for those vs. other yard work.

 

Jamie, he's been displaying this behavior for the past several weeks. He'd been chomping/rolling bumpers more and more, as well blowing through commands like sit or once he got close. It was like he was assuming I wanted him to come all the way to me and sit at heel (which is good in a way I suppose), but he wouldn't listen if I told him to sit in front of me.

I noticed the mopey attitude most when I started correcting these behaviors.

Try working on the sit problem indoors and mix the collar pressure with something fun. I like to use food with collar pressure for a good focused sit.

I have my dog sit in front of me and when he looks away I say sit, then nick, and when he looks at you reward with food. You are conditioning the dog to look at you when told to sit and also associating the collar pressure with something the dog likes.

You can also do the same thing with a ball, when he looks at you throw the ball as a reward. Over time you can stretch out the reward and make him focus longer. Start at making him focus for 2 seconds before rewarding then increase to 2 min. Keep increasing the focus time until you are satisfied.

The most important part is turning the collar pressure into something fun that the dog clearly understands. I have seen this behavior caused by heavy e-collar usage. Either by high correction levels or simply by asking to much to soon from the dog.

It's always best to iron out one wrinkle at a time while ignoring other behaviors rather than trying to correct everything all at once.

 

Interestingly enough I was just having FTP problems too, maybe some of the advice I got will help you.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49334&highlight=ftp

Turns out in my case the dog was just tired of the drill. I have moved on and the problems disapeared.

Some fellow RTF'r also PM'd me with a suggestion that I started doing that was a big boost in dog attitude for me. I put a post (marked with surveyor's tape) in the ground with the pile and send him to the post from the side (5 bumpers is all). The more chalenging the location of the pile/post the more my dog seems to enjoy it. Now when I grab the post from the garage he has the same reaction as when I grab the bumper bag.

I'll put it in some brush or a long way away or accross the creek, he seems to love it.

 

But I do have a question about your quote I posted here. When you say "Things you specifically are doing that dont jive with dog training weather you follow a program or not," are you speaking generally about any wannabe trainer who doesn't apply a program correctly, or are you saying that something I have described about how I do things is wrong

I thought I explained that good enough
lets try this

Your trying to advance your dog so by doing so you must apply some type of positive and negative responce in your steps so your line of communication gets more fluid as time goes on.
If you are correcting for 1 thing it is very possible that timing is off or you chose the wrong kind of motivation or like most problems both are occuring and the dog is not making the coorelation,,,which can cause confusion, avoidance bad attitude that kind of stuff or if you are trying to work on to many things in 1 shot

Only you know for sure which is why you gotta take a time out and think.


So if you follow a program but your motivation and timing is off then even Lardys brandy new video cant help you.

Something isnt condusive to advancing your dog. And mostly it has to be what you are or are not doing

Thats all I meant,,,,and lets say you went to a seminar and they used you and the dog for an example,,, the teacher of that seminar would point out a few things for you and wala your problem starts to disappear.


Last half of your post

I dont know what you are doing wrong but I know something is wrong, you stated your dog swings his butt away from you and he gets moody when asked to do it your way

Thats all I or anyone else has to go on


Does that make any more sence
Pete