[Ted Shih]

In another thread, IdahoLabs asked "What are the most common handler mistakes at a trial that make a good marking dog look like a poor marker?"

Comments, anyone?

 

[dr_dog_guy]

I resemble that remark! I have lined up my dog poorly multiple times. I've been lucky that most times Carson the FC has pulled it out because he is a good marking dog. Bridger the FC-wanna be, not so much.

Advice from a handler than can mess up a perfectly reliable dog? 1) Don't get stressed 2) take your time but don't fiddle around 3) make sure you are lined up at the next mark before the dog returns 4) pick out a landmark near you on line to the mark (a rock, a clump of grass, or whatever), just like you would on a blind, and make sure the dog is pointed at your landmark before you send 5) practice wagon wheels until your lining with the dog is second nature.

 

[Breck]

One mistake is not reading the dog.
Dog returning with bird glances over his shoulder at key bird just before getting to line. Dog is saying, OK boss I got it, take this bird and cut me loose.
Dog spins to heel sit lined up nicely, another clue.
Instead of trusting dogs clues handler should have noticed, he fusses with dog, no here heel whatever and distracts dog off his mark. Dog ends up... well not in a good place.

 

[Bryan Parks]

I know there are a few things I've done and have gotten better at but still need work on.

Moving too fast off of a mark to the next when marks are going off.

Sending too fast on memory birds. We do much better when I let her focus and take my time before sending.

Not paying enough attention to lining on memory birds. If I take my time, let her focus and make sure she's lined up we do much better.

We really started to improve our marking when I was made aware of this at a training day with a pro.

Sent my dog for the punch bird up the middle and she ran right under the arc and just kept going. Pro said, "well don't say you never taught her anything" she took a perfect 200 yard line right where you pointed her.

I've since paid much more attention to how i set her up for marks and try to remember to slow down.

 

[John Robinson]

Breck's post was right on. I've had the good fortune to have owned a couple really good, very confident markers. Both of these dog would return from a retrieve knowing exactly which bird they wanted next, and more times than not, right where it was. Many times this conflicted with the plan I had walking out of the holding blind.

It took a few times beating my head against the wall to finally start believing the dog.

 

[Tobias]

Breck's post was right on. I've had the good fortune to have owned a couple really good, very confident markers. Both of these dog would return from a retrieve knowing exactly which bird they wanted next, and more times than not, right where it was. Many times this conflicted with the plan I had walking out of the holding blind.

It took a few times beating my head against the wall to finally start believing the dog.

I would be surprised if this is not an uncommon occurance amongst handlers (both test and trial). I have done it at times, for reasons I thought at the time were good ones - all in hunt tests, so the error was not cause for failure (it could be though!). Having a dog that can overcome this handler deficit is a plus. And I wonder if there are judges who set up tests that encourage such handler errors.


Another way handlers cause a good marking dog to look bad is not positioning the dog for the best 'view' before the marks are thrown (esp if there is no mat or if, as in a test, the dog is positioned remotely)

 

[John Robinson]

I would be surprised if this is not an uncommon occurance amongst handlers (both test and trial). I have done it at times, for reasons I thought at the time were good ones - all in hunt tests, so the error was not cause for failure (it could be though!). Having a dog that can overcome this handler deficit is a plus. And I wonder if there are judges who set up tests that encourage such handler errors.


I can think of three ways a dog can overcome this handler error; 1) A compliant dog allows the handler to change his mind, knows where the bird is and retrieves the last two as directed by his handler. 2) A lesser marking, but good lining dog and takes the line as directed, either winds the bird or finds the holding blind me and works it out. 3) A very good marking dog, humors his handler by lying to him, appears to give him his line, then swings in on the bird he wanted the whole time.

My dogs were in the latter category, sometimes it worked out ok, but with a terrible initial line, sometimes he ended up splitting the difference and ending up in no man's land. It didn't take long for me to learn to take the bird my dog lines up on. I could slightly finesse his line, but it would be a mistake to try to line him up on another bird.

 

[Ted Shih]

My general thoughts are:

1. Poor obedience to the line and on the mat
2. Lack of standardized routine
3. Lack of patience
4. Too much attention out in the field and not enough on the dog
5. Assume too much responsibility for the dog

1-2. For points one and two, my model would be Judy Aycock

She comes out of the holding blind, the dog heels by her side. As she comes to the mat, she lets the dog survey the field and find the gun station. She aligns the dog to the last bird dog. Pulls or pushes the dog's head (its butt is planted on the ground) towards the first bird to be shot, then nods her head quickly to signal for the birds. By and large, Judy does not spend alot of time identifying the gun stations for her dog.

- In contrast, I see many handlers (mostly Amateurs) saying, "heel, heel, heel, sit, sit, sit" on the way to the line and then repeating the circus on the mat. Too me, it's just a lot wasted motion. I like how economical Judy is when she comes to the line.

3. Once your dog is on the mat, take a breath, take the time to let the dog settle into the mat. Let the dog get its bearings, find the guns, and get ready. Too many handlers fuss incessantly (see 1-2 above), then once they finally get lock on the first bird shot (usually the long gun), immediately call for the birds. Take your time. Be patient.

4. Most Amateur handlers spend too much time looking out into the field, and not watching their dogs. You can train yourself to do both, but if you're not comfortable doing that, watch the dog. That way, you'll know what bird he saw, what bird he missed, what bird he flash marked

5. Unless you really need to step in, let your dog assume responsibility for the mark. By and large, Amateur handlers try to do too much (or too little). For the most part, you try to line the dog properly for the marks (after the first retrieve). But don't fuss too much trying to get the perfect line. If you do, you will soon teach the dog to rely on you, not itself. You want to cultivate confidence. When possible, give your dog its head. When it looks foggy or the bird is really hard, step in. But be careful. Over involvement reduces self confidence

Ted

 

[Breck]

"4. Most Amateur handlers spend too much time looking out into the field, and not watching their dogs. You can train yourself to do both, but if you're not comfortable doing that, watch the dog. That way, you'll know what bird he saw, what bird he missed, what bird he flash marked"
.
Taking eyes off dogs eyes to briefly glance at mark is about all you need.
You already know where dead birds will land. Do look at flyer fall so you know where yours lands. Otherwise eyes on dogs eyes. Brief glances into field ok after shots if you are unsure of judges cadence.

 

[Golddogs]

My general thoughts are:

1. Poor obedience to the line and on the mat
2. Lack of standardized routine
3. Lack of patience
4. Too much attention out in the field and not enough on the dog
5. Assume too much responsibility for the dog

1-2. For points one and two, my model would be Judy Aycock

She comes out of the holding blind, the dog heels by her side. As she comes to the mat, she lets the dog survey the field and find the gun station. She aligns the dog to the last bird dog. Pulls or pushes the dog's head (its butt is planted on the ground) towards the first bird to be shot, then nods her head quickly to signal for the birds. By and large, Judy does not spend alot of time identifying the gun stations for her dog.

- In contrast, I see many handlers (mostly Amateurs) saying, "heel, heel, heel, sit, sit, sit" on the way to the line and then repeating the circus on the mat. Too me, it's just a lot wasted motion. I like how economical Judy is when she comes to the line.

3. Once your dog is on the mat, take a breath, take the time to let the dog settle into the mat. Let the dog get its bearings, find the guns, and get ready. Too many handlers fuss incessantly (see 1-2 above), then once they finally get lock on the first bird shot (usually the long gun), immediately call for the birds. Take your time. Be patient.

4. Most Amateur handlers spend too much time looking out into the field, and not watching their dogs. You can train yourself to do both, but if you're not comfortable doing that, watch the dog. That way, you'll know what bird he saw, what bird he missed, what bird he flash marked

5. Unless you really need to step in, let your dog assume responsibility for the mark. By and large, Amateur handlers try to do too much (or too little). For the most part, you try to line the dog properly for the marks (after the first retrieve). But don't fuss too much trying to get the perfect line. If you do, you will soon teach the dog to rely on you, not itself. You want to cultivate confidence. When possible, give your dog its head. When it looks foggy or the bird is really hard, step in. But be careful. Over involvement reduces self confidence

Ted

Very good points, thank you, and I would add:

Rushing to take the bird from the dog and not allowing the dog enough time to re-develop his picture of the mark and rushing his send on the bird.

Ted, these threads have been so enjoyable.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

I learned 4&5 the hard way.

 

[Jerry S.]

"She comes out of the holding blind, the dog heels by her side. As she comes to the mat, she lets the dog survey the field and find the gun station. She aligns the dog to the last bird dog. Pulls or pushes the dog's head (its butt is planted on the ground) towards the first bird to be shot, then nods her head quickly to signal for the birds. By and large, Judy does not spend alot of time identifying the gun stations for her dog."

I know Danny likes lining up dog toward last bird down as well. Personally, I don't as I feel that promotes head swinging. I let the dog survey the guns from a half step behind dog. Then I step up and show him the order that I want them picked up. The dog is always set up to look at the first bird down and only moves his head when I move.

 

[Kajun Kamakazi]

The “first look” is a good practice I think. A dog should be lined up and the first look it sees is the next mark. Don’t let it swing in and look into the trap of the test. For example, dog is returning from the go-bird and there’s a short retired and a standout long flyer. You would want to position the dog that the first place it looks when it swings around to heel is the short-retired. You would not want it to look at the flyer, then fuss with it “heel, heel! Here, here!” to look back to the short retired. Just my 2¢