[Ken Newcomb]

So no one thinks I am outing anyone I am the judge in question in this scenario. I will not mention the name of my co-judge. He was apprenticing under me at the time and I take full responsibility for the decision even though he has an equal say.

Straight up Seasoned land double with a diversion after the last bird. Dog retrieves first bird, delivers to hand. Dog retrieves second bird, diversion is thrown away from dog, dog returns to heel, spits bird out on ground, handler sends dog to retrieve diversion. Diversion delivered to hand, dog picks up second mark from ground. This all happened very quickly.

WHAT HAPPENED??? Switch or Failure?
I will report how we judged it after some input and discussion.

This is being discussed on the HRC Field Rep forum. I have been told I was wrong. I am interested to see what others think.

 

[Kevinismybrother]

handler error
- sorry you failed - nice dog though and you are welcome back to run the water if you'd like.

 

[43x]

So no one thinks I am outing anyone I am the judge in question in this scenario. I will not mention the name of my co-judge. He was apprenticing under me at the time and I take full responsibility for the decision even though he has an equal say.

Straight up Seasoned land double with a diversion after the last bird. Dog retrieves first bird, delivers to hand. Dog retrieves second bird, diversion is thrown away from dog, dog returns to heel, spits bird out on ground, handler sends dog to retrieve diversion. Diversion delivered to hand, dog picks up second mark from ground. This all happened very quickly.

WHAT HAPPENED??? Switch or Failure?
I will report how we judged it after some input and discussion.

This is being discussed on the HRC Field Rep forum. I have been told I was wrong. I am interested to see what others think.

In Season I don't think a switch is a fail, I could be wrong so I'd say the dog passed ?

 

[Brad]

I ran one of mine and she did the same thing. She was coming in with bird and diversion was thrown, she droped bird and brought back diversion. Then sent her for the other bird.
I dont remeber if she was test dog or running the test, but the judges told me, it wasnt concidered a switch on a diversion. I thought it would have been a switch
Or maybe they just told me it was ok in seasoned.
Sorry for no help here

 

[Brian Courser]

In seasoned is that you shall not fail but will be marked scored lower by the Judges. What difference does it make if you consider this a switch at the line or next to the bird. From your post the dog delieverd all three birds to hand. Just not in the most orthdoxe way

 

[Kevin Eskam]

Switching should not fail the dog unless he didnt score very good in the rest of the test..... If he did the blinds decent and picked up all the chickens I would think a PASS would be in order.......

 

[ErinsEdge]

How can a dog dropping a bird and getting another be a pass?

 

[Mistyriver]

A switch is not a failure in Seasoned. I don't care where the dog switched at. He still passes and I just mark it on my sheet.

However, after reading Ken's post again I see he said the Handler sent the dog to the Diversion. Now you have added another element. The dog did not switch on his own. The handler sent the dog to the diversion. Why did the handler not just require the dog to fetch up the dropped bird? I can see where this is going.

 

[robertnla]

If the dog passed all the other elements of the test and only switched the dog clearly gets a pass according to rule book like stated by others.
On the other hand if the handler had problems controlling the dog on the switch and had another control issue elsewere in the test then my co-judge and I would be giving the issue a more serious look.

 

[2labs]

In the scenario the dog didn't switch. The HANDLER was to slow in receiving the bird while the dog was re-aligned and sent to pick up the diversion

 

[22899]

I dont know why I am replying!!!

I must have a problem

I cant stay out of this stuff!

I didnt actually see it happen. so I'll cover my bases there and sit on the middle of the fence,, I have to see it to judge it!! Hows that??

BUT


I read it as the dog came back to the line with the second bird,, and Failed to deliver to hand.
Then the dog was sent for the diversion.

There was no switch.

There was a failer to deliver to hand.

Dog fails!!


I bet people are out findin another short rope and a tall tree!

Look ,, Ya kint killl me twice!!!

Gooser

 

[robertnla]

AS per rule book page 40 part VII "A diversionary bird can be thrown after the walk-up , blind, or last retrieve of a double mark. If a seasoned hunting retriever switches to the diversionary bird, it will not fail but will be scored lower by the judge. The hunting retriever shall retrieve the diversionary bird."

 

[gward]

Don't sound like he switched to me, sounds like the handler sent him before he delivered the go bird to hand. Sorry bout your luck Chuck thanks for the donation!

 

[robertnla]

As long as the handler has not touched the bird "mark #2" it doesn't matter. How can you say he sent him for the diversion. Handler may have been nervous and said the dogs name out of confusion and the dog picks up the diversion.
I'm sure as a judge you will see a lot more crazier things happen at season level.

 

[Brad]

I ran one of mine and she did the same thing. She was coming in with bird and diversion was thrown, she droped bird and brought back diversion. Then sent her for the other bird.
I dont remeber if she was test dog or running the test, but the judges told me, it wasnt concidered a switch on a diversion. I thought it would have been a switch
Or maybe they just told me it was ok in seasoned.
Sorry for no help here

Sorry, I didnt study the OP that good, but mine was coming in with the 2nd bird and as soon as diversion was thrown she dropped it in route and picked up the diversion, then was sent to droped bird and picked it up.

 

[limiman12]

I don't think you are calling judges out as much as you are the handler......

On one hand, DOUGH! for sending the dog to pick up the other bird w/o making it pick up the bird......

on teh other hand, quick thinking to not pick the bird up and make the dog do it when it returned.....

Don't play the HRC game but the dog clearly failed to deliver to hand in the process of switching, but if a switch in the field at the diversion bird is allowed.... the dog clearly performed the diversion bird better then if it had run over and switched, so if a dog that blatently switched at the bird is allowed to pass I would have a hard time not interpretting the rules to allow this dog to pass. BUt I may give the handler the bonehead award at the banquet.....

One time I saw a dog in a stake where delivery to hand was not required, failed for being slightly sticky on one bird, and moderately sticky on another (had to be told three times to drop, with some tugging) The judge said repeated evidence of sticky is grounds for failure but passed the dog that dropped all five birds at the handlers feet.....

I see this as similar, the sticky dog perfromed clearly better then the dog that did not deliver to hand, not perfect by anymeans, but better then spitting birds. The dog that "switched" at the line, clearly performed better then a dog that ran straight over and switched at the fall.

I could defend passing the dog, but if you didn't pass the dog, I could defend that as well as looking at teh handler and saying it was the HANDLERS fault.

 

[Mistyriver]

Sorry, I didnt study the OP that good, but mine was coming in with the 2nd bird and as soon as diversion was thrown she dropped it in route and picked up the diversion, then was sent to droped bird and picked it up.

And you would have passed as long as everything else was good.

 

[Kevinismybrother]

AS per rule book page 40 part VII "A diversionary bird can be thrown after the walk-up , blind, or last retrieve of a double mark. If a seasoned hunting retriever switches to the diversionary bird, it will not fail but will be scored lower by the judge. The hunting retriever shall retrieve the diversionary bird."

you left out the middle part of that paragraph:
"a switch is defined as dropping one bird and picking up another bird. The purpose of the test is to require the Seasoned dog to demonstrate a reasonable degree of control on the return from a retrieve."

Dog returned to the line in the OP scenario. Dropped the bird at the line and went for the diversion. Unless your point is the dog is still returning because he has not delivered to hand yet - the dog/handler has shown no control and gets a 0 score there.

hard A$$ regards

 

[robertnla]

I wrote the quote straight out the book. It maybe an older book. Jan/1/07
No pun intended!!

 

[Janet Kimbrough]

I dont know why I am replying!!!

I must have a problem

I cant stay out of this stuff!

I didnt actually see it happen. so I'll cover my bases there and sit on the middle of the fence,, I have to see it to judge it!! Hows that??

BUT


I read it as the dog came back to the line with the second bird,, and Failed to deliver to hand.
Then the dog was sent for the diversion.

There was no switch.

There was a failer to deliver to hand.

Dog fails!!


I bet people are out findin another short rope and a tall tree!

Look ,, Ya kint killl me twice!!!

Gooser

YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY WITH THIS ONE. The dog did not switch because it came back to the handler, dropped the marked retriever and was sent for the diversion bird.

The dog failed for not delivering to hand!!!

Janet