[john fallon]

Though hidden and not being used at the time a second gun station for another series of the Junior is normally in the working dogs field of view at least from the line, and at times the one station is down wind of the other.

That being said, at an AKC Junior test, can a dog , sent for its first series single going to the other AOF be charged with a switch, or go back to an old fall if it's its second series mark, since those marks are in other series ?

john

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

First we should define both a switch and old fall.

Switch

Switch - page 27,
In Senior and Master Hunting Tests a dog that goes to the area of a fall, hunts, fails to find, and then leaves the area to hunt for another fall, or that drops a bird it is retrieving and goes for another, shall be considered to have switched. Unless in the opinion of the Judges there exist valid mitigating circumstances, a dog that switches shall be scored “0” in Perseverance in Senior and Master Hunting Tests.

page 43
Switching birds implies that a dog gives up in its hunt after a search, leaves the area, and goes for another bird, or when it drops a bird it is retrieving and goes for another. Except in the latter case, a dog shall not be scored for lack of Perseverance unless it goes to the area of a fall, hunts, fails to find, and then leaves that area to hunt for another fall. It shall not be considered as a lack of Perseverance, if, while on the way to one fall, the dog sees or finds another bird and retrieves it first; or, if on the way to one fall but long before it reaches the area of the fall, it changes its direction and goes for another bird.

Old Fall

Page 27
A dog that returns to the area of a fall or a blind that it has previously retrieved and establishes another hunt shall be considered to have returned to an old fall. Unless in the opinion of the Judges there exist valid mitigating circumstances, a dog that returns to an old fall shall be scored low in Perseverance and/or Marking, even to the extent of awarding a grade of “zero.”

Switch - If there was no bird thrown how could it be a switch? In your scenario you state the dog goes to the other AOF. If the dog did not go to the area of the fall for the bird thrown and establish a hunt, then it could not be a switch.

Old Fall – Not as clear. The guide does not say that to qualify as an old fall, that it must be part of the current test. It could then be possible for a dog to return to an old fall from another series, but only if it had previously picked up a bird there. If the station is from a test the dog did not run, then he could not be charged with returning to an old fall.



What we do have is a very poorly setup Junior test.

Page 33

Never set up tests that are designed to trick the dog. Visible gun stations shall never be moved to another area to mislead the dog.

/Paul

 

[Terry A]

What we do have is a very poorly setup Junior test. [/SIZE]


/Paul

I agree 100%

 

[Eric Johnson]

In either case, could not the dog be faulted for hunting out of the area of the fall? Here I'm seeing this as truly hunting the area as opposed to just passing through. If he does this for an extended period or never leaves it for the true AOF, isn't the meter running.....down to zero eventually?

Eric

 

[ErinsEdge]

First we should define both a switch and old fall.

Switch

Quote:
Switch - page 27,
In Senior and Master Hunting Tests a dog that goes to the area of a fall, hunts, fails to find, and then leaves the area to hunt for another fall, or that drops a bird it is retrieving and goes for another, shall be considered to have switched. Unless in the opinion of the Judges there exist valid mitigating circumstances, a dog that switches shall be scored “0” in Perseverance in Senior and Master Hunting Tests.

page 43
Switching birds implies that a dog gives up in its hunt after a search, leaves the area, and goes for another bird, or when it drops a bird it is retrieving and goes for another. Except in the latter case, a dog shall not be scored for lack of Perseverance unless it goes to the area of a fall, hunts, fails to find, and then leaves that area to hunt for another fall. It shall not be considered as a lack of Perseverance, if, while on the way to one fall, the dog sees or finds another bird and retrieves it first; or, if on the way to one fall but long before it reaches the area of the fall, it changes its direction and goes for another bird.




Old Fall

Quote:
Page 27
A dog that returns to the area of a fall or a blind that it has previously retrieved and establishes another hunt shall be considered to have returned to an old fall. Unless in the opinion of the Judges there exist valid mitigating circumstances, a dog that returns to an old fall shall be scored low in Perseverance and/or Marking, even to the extent of awarding a grade of “zero.”

Thanks Paul. I wish all the judges would read that in the rule book. ROFing is not switching because there is no bird there. ROFing happens all the time at FT all age stakes but if the dog does not set up a hunt it's not a fault. ROFing with a flower pot set of marks where the AOF basically overlaps is not a fault if the dog does not put his nose down. Very misunderstood.

 

[john fallon]

What we do have is a very poorly setup Junior test.

Never set up tests that are designed to trick the dog. Visible gun stations shall never be moved to another area to mislead the dog.

If I understand you paul/, the common practice in the Junior of setting up two marks, a double so to speak, then running it as two Junior singles is a poor practice for the reason stated above and others?

john

 

[Golddogs]

If I understand you paul/, the common practice in the Junior of setting up two marks, a double so to speak, then running it as two Junior singles is a poor practice for the reason stated above and others?

john

I always try to have blinds ( gun stations) hidden in juniors and seniors so they do not focus on the station. A little brushing in works wonders. Give the juniors as much seperation as possible, flyer second and rairly do we have a dog go to the old fall. If he does, just a bad day for him.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

If I understand you paul/, the common practice in the Junior of setting up two marks, a double so to speak, then running it as two Junior singles is a poor practice for the reason stated above and others?

john

There should be sufficient spread and enough cover to ensure the guns are hidden that this does not interfere as you described a junior level dog. To do otherwise goes against the test requirements and intent of the junior level and equates in my book to just tricking young dogs.

/Paul

 

[john fallon]

I guess what I am trying to assertain is...is that for the purpose of testing at the Junior level, is a "single" that is simply a multipal setup with the birds thrown one bird at a time, acceptable.

john

 

[DoubleHaul]

I guess what I am trying to assertain is...is that for the purpose of testing at the Junior level, is a "single" that is simply a multipal setup with the birds thrown one bird at a time, acceptable.

john

It must be in my area. It is extremely common for the Sunday Junior marks to be the Saturday Senior setup as singles--and vice versa. Sometimes I think it works out well, sometimes not so much.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

I guess what I am trying to assertain is...is that for the purpose of testing at the Junior level, is a "single" that is simply a multipal setup with the birds thrown one bird at a time, acceptable.

john

Depends on how they are setup. A flowerpot clearly wouldn't be right. It all depends on the separation and visibility...

/Paul

 

[brandywinelabs]

I've only truly thought about using a JH setup as the SH setup or vice versa one time. But I didn't.
You only open yourself up to "why are/did the Juniors running Senior marks"?
Also, you have to consider if there are any moving from JH to SH because they titled the day before.
IMHO, best to avoid.

 

[K G]

I've only truly thought about using a JH setup as the SH setup or vice versa one time. But I didn't.
You only open yourself up to "why are/did the Juniors running Senior marks"? Also, you have to consider if there are any moving from JH to SH because they titled the day before.
IMHO, best to avoid.

Is the above statement in bold type akin to the other discussion about JH/SH/MH marks?

kg

 

[brandywinelabs]

It is not. Just saying you open yourself up to those comments which will most likely occur.

 

[Thomas D]

If you truly feel these are valid JH marks, why concern yourself with what handlers or gallery might say?

 

[brandywinelabs]

Thomas D
True. Just saying.....
We probably would have run the one test I truly thought of doing it except there was a JH dog that moved up for the next day.

 

[K G]

If you truly feel these are valid JH marks, why concern yourself with what handlers or gallery might say?

Indeed.

My primary concern would be if Senior had been there the day before and the birds weren't thrown EXACTLY where the Senior judges threw them, you might be creating a problem for Junior dogs whose hunting experience in scented areas where there is not a bird is not as developed as that of a Senior or Master dog. I wouldn't have a problem with it if the birds, thrown as singles were WIDE enough apart to be appropriate for Junior and in the same area.

If they couldn't be the same area and you couldn't avoid any unfair wind influence (for inexperienced Junior dogs), I'd run the test elsewhere.

JMHO...

kg