[KwickLabs]

Awhile back there was a discussion that mentioned "slow to mature" puppies in specific lines.

I looked up the definition which does not readily translate to what one might "see" when training
an immature puppy. I am more interested in the mental aspects rather than physical. To some
extent, can a puppy appear "immature" simply because of not being taught properly? How does
one differentiate?

"Capping energy" issues, regards Jim

 

[windycanyon]

I don't think so. I've had some pups that just aren't ready to deal w/ the pressure of FF at 6mos. Maybe you need to wait til 9 mos. Maybe later. It's not that they are not smart-- ime. Just an inconvenience if you are stuck on a timeline.

 

[swampcollielover]

I agree with 'windycanyon', I too had a pup that at 6 months our pro said he thought she was just not mentally mature yet for Field Training. What she did was duirng a short training routine, she would just 'quit' and start playing or just smelling around wagging her tail all the time. So we brought her home and just continued with puppy obedience and lost of play after training, for two more months. We took her back to our trainer and she did very well....from then on she became a star, our best hunting dog ever. I did run her through Senior Hunter level! She passed a couple of MH, but I really only wanted her for hunting. She is the best field dog I have ever had.

Good Luck

 

[ErinsEdge]

Like when kids start school and concentration is off because they are just shy but they get put behind right away. Some could be behind because too much is thrown at them at once and they shut down too.

 

[KwickLabs]

In this case, it is not about shutting down......just the opposite. With Hillmann's approach her initial "wild to retrieve"
made her oblivious to any interactions except for shaking and killing her prey......just a bumper. She is now six and a
half months old. She has done very well with her OB (if it doesn't involve a retrieve). She will heel correctly carrying
a bumper (holding).....no issues. It's just when the "prey drive" becomes aroused with a tossed bumper.

She will work a short pile of two (not moving bumpers), returning to a front sit delivery. If I throw a bumper ten yards,
she is very steadily until released. Then she fires and "the beast" surfaces. Throw a Dokken....it is worse.

Then there was her fresh, dead mallard intro. She wanted no part of that. So out came a white, clipped wing pigeon
She was very cautious and ran from it when it moved. Two days later, mallards were like bumpers....something to "shake
and kill".......retrieving (bringing it back) was not in the equation. When doing the close up fetch the mallard was treated
quite normally...hold and heel was good....when tossed......different story.

She did an AKC puppy OB class and had no issues. She was definitely animated and "upbeat", but made progress each
session. Around the house, the routines are very good. The only issues are she wants to do "stuff" faster than I do.
That has undergone a steady improvement to almost working off lead.....almost. Sooo.....the only issue is just the
"retrieving beast".

The following photo was from her first day of doing Hilllmann at eight weeks old......getting wild to retrieve was EASY.
Too easy?

This is a more recent photo of "beast mode" at 5 months old. The rope is on there for a reason.

Just immaturity would be wonderful.

 

[ErinsEdge]

So are you complaining or bragging? Letting her make the decisions about shaking her prey because she wants to isn't conducive to moving forward. If she's that obsessed, heel her between piles of bumpers to desensitize her. That's what we did with one of mine with high prey drive.

 

[EdA]

Jim, clearly this dog is too much for you. If you need stress relief I would be happy to do that for a nominal fee. Should I send a check or COD? She will have and good home and get quality training.

 

[swampcollielover]

The good news is the pup has Drive! The bad news it the pup has Drive! Once you get it controlled, you will always appreciate that drive...!


I've had two retrievers that were to hot to handle at first! Constant drilling on piles and very long retrieves, in time, helped. If they blew up on a retrieve or drill, it was always back to the step before that, until it again is 100%.

When we ran them in hunt tests, I would get up early and run the tar out of them, before we jumped in car to go to the hunt tests. If I did not do this, they both would blow by marks at 100mph....running them helped them focus on the tests, marks, and hunt patterns for blinds.

 

[labsforme]

Jim, I guess my question would be, even following a program, why over excite the pup when they are an amped up type to begin with? Modify the approach to the individual dog. I would not do retrieves until she was FF and showing she understands proper mouth and hold. You have a nice pup. Keep her that way.

Ed want to co-own?

Jeff

 

[bamajeff]

I'm guessing Hillmann would say this pup is 'out of balance'. With the mouth issues you already have with her, not sure Hillmann fetch is the best route. He may have ways of dealing with this type of issue, but I haven't seen it on any of his material.

 

[KwickLabs]

"So are you complaining or bragging?"

Well, actually neither. I have been working on modified the approach. The recent immaturity thread seemed to be related. I know
what this pup can do.....so she's not going anywhere.

Recently, I did some two bumper, short pile work and she did fine with that. The idea was to reduce the excitement of a bumper
in motion (stationary). This seemed to immediately produce some progress. Fetch is solid, just gotta watch the fingers. However,
right after fetch the "amperage" jumps. Diving after bumpers immediately escalates the excitement and sit is not smooth. If we
simply walk off at heel, that seems somewhat of an easier transition.

We are working on what immediately follows "fetch". I want sit and her prey drive isn't "cooperating". I am not in a hurry. Pressure
is not going to work. Until the recent thread on immaturity "popped up", the approach seemed "blurry" at best. The last few weeks
it seems as though her hearing (responsiveness) has begun to "peak through the fog". The "why over excite" comment fits.

The comment about proper mouth and hold is a work in progress. She will walk at heel and do most all the OB commands with
"bumper in mouth". The transition between coming back with a retrieve and smoothly flowing to a "calm, correct delivery" was
not coming along very well. Breaking it down into smaller steps "without excitement" first seems to be having a positive impact.

I know what she is capable of doing and have no intentions of running her in anything until late next year.

"Jim, clearly this dog is too much for you. If you need stress relief I would be happy to do that for a nominal fee."

Thanks EDA that was very helpful. However, I am not stressed......just inexperienced. This pup will push my boundaries (or not).

 

[Tobias]

I love that every pup/dog is different. This helps us grow as trainers.

Sounds like you have gotten a pretty good idea of what changes need to be made for your youngster to learn properly. Calm, slow, and deliberate - baby steps, and a lot of repetition to condition the response you desire. Sounds easier than it is. LOL

 

[Bryan Parks]

Are you planning to put this pup through a force program or the Hillmann approach?

Is it possible that maybe this pup would benefit from a more traditional(for lack of a better term) approach when the time is right.

Formal obedience, FF, CC......

 

[swampcollielover]

Sounds like you have a real firecracker, and I consider that a good thing! You cannot build drive in a dog that has none, it has to be in their blood line!

As you are doing now, keep talking to sport dog folks and as you continue to work with your pup, you will develop a special methodology that she will help her focus. Eventually, all her energy will focus on doing what she is supposed to do...and I would bet she will be a good problem solver, sounds funny, but most trainers and field dog folks I have talked to suggest that a dog with that internal fire, will eventually turn that into problem solving...you are going to enjoy all the work your do with her, and the longer term results will be a great lifelong reward...

Good luck....

 

[Jerry S.]

Jim, please stop with the quotation marks. They are used to quote someone, not air quotes!! Every time I read your posts I get bogged down by them. Sorry.

I've had several dogs like yours. If you want to meet at Madison sometime I would love to see your pup and what you have done thus far.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Jim, the problem lies in the fact that your Pavlovian (classical) conditioning is weak in her recall and hasn't been generalized to all contexts (yet).

It's quite common that a certain level of arousal, this breaks down. She needs you to concentrate on some drive capping exercises.

I gave you a suggestion that I thought you said was working (reinforcing recall with bird in mouth). It seems as though there is either an issue with the nuance of this process or your perseverance/adherence over time.

Did something take you off that course or are you just fishing for more information?

You are a big thinker, my friend.