[captainjack]

Are you looking for a philosophical discussion? I used this method with my current pup. She is now 14 months old and has a very reliable sit. She is calm in the holding blinds, and calm, steady, and attentive on the line. I don't know why it works, I only know that it does work. That's enough for me.

 

[captainjack]

Guess I've been edujmacted, still CC is the only reason I know of to nick-sit @ heel, CC is teaching the dog to work with collar pressure. OP asked why you would shock a dog for sitting, Forgot a program was involved, I don't study programs or philosophy. Just dogs, and I'm definitely no an expert @ that LOL

Hillman is not CCing the dog with these nicks. He also doesn't use a low collar setting, he uses the first notch above zero. It seams that would be imperceptible to the dog but the pup quickly notices the tiny impulse. I even put two 4 year old very high drive dogs through some sessions and now commonly use a 1 low (TT500) for corrections around the line with great effect.

Collar corrections cause some dogs to move, when we are trying to stop movement in the first place. the first notch above zero nick allows the dog to remain focused on the marks.

In traditional collar conditioning, which I do after completing the Hillman puppy stuff, you are still nicking the dog that is already sitting. I see no conflict between Hillman and traditional in that regard.

 

[captainjack]

I just want to know the logic behind a training program before I commit to it. I have spoken to several ppl that have been happy with the program. I just can't figure out the purpose of the nick when the dog is already sitting.

Does the purpose really matter if the people who recommend it are using it to turn out dogs that perform the way you would want them to? Hillman's record speaks for itself of course, but I'm guessing the others you've talked to that are happy with the results are just average Joe's getting great results.

You may want to check out Hillman's web site. He may answer your question there. If not, contact h through the web site and I'll bet you'll get your answer.

 

[captainjack]

But of course he is. It's the beginning of CC for the pup. He's being given a command that he already knows and it's being reinforced with the collar. How's that not CC?

BTW to the OP> Bill uses the Collar for the first time on Training Day 12 after pup has had plenty excitement with a thawed duck. He uses it one time that session and that's it.

It's not CCing like anyone else does it. It seams traditional collar conditioning is nicking in order to get the dog to sit (even though you initially nick when the dig is already sitting or in the process of sitting). You also traditionally nick only once as in sit-nick-sit.

What Hillman does is keep a dog sitting with several nicks and sit commands as the dog continues to sit.

 

[captainjack]

Well whatever it is, it sure helped during FF with my pup. FF is already tough enough. I couldn't imagine with a dog that wouldn't sit like he was taught to through Hillmann Pup. Well I actually can imagine it b/c I see it in Farmer/Aycock Basics hearing Danny say about 10 times, Sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit......SIT SIT SIT....'Hold' .... lol

I agree, I don't care what it's called or why it works. I just know that my next pup will go through the Hillman puppy program because it produces what I'm looking for in a six month old dog.

 

[captainjack]

I too have a problem using the collar to reinforce sit. Because the next step is to teach your trainee to come on command. My concern is, at some point you're asking your dog to make the determination as to which command you are reinforcing, "sit", or "come". i'm aware that many professionals are using this method and I have no intention to try to convince other trainers that this is wrong. However, i would advise anyone thinking about using the technique to think about it from the dog's point of view. Training techniques and philisophy canges with time, and i'm OK with that as long as it does not confuse the trainee, from my view point of course.
have fun training
GG

The way you talk about the collar, it appears you're not be familiar with its proper use. In CC as taught in Lardy's TRT, the collar nick is always preceded by a command. So it's "sit" nick, "here" nick, etc. Secondly, the collar is not used at all until the pup fully understands the command without a collar nick. So the nick doesn't sometimes mean here and sometimes mean sit. The nick alone has no meaning at all. If you follow this method, the pup will not be confused by the nick. In fact that is what collar conditioning is. Getting the dog to understand if I say sit and nick, means sit. If I say here and nick, means come.

 

[captainjack]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Grady may not be a Lardyite, but I think he knows collar training.

I'm not saying he doesn't. But in reading his post, surely you can see how one could draw that conclusion.