[BROWNDOGG]

I have a No Go problem. First a little background on the dog 7 years, has been through FF CC, is not overly sensitive but soft , a healing stick is out of the question with her if you even have one in your pocket she shuts down, but she does fine with collar pressure. For her first five years she was a hunting dog and had alot of holes in her basics, in the last two years we have both learned alot and she is twice the dog she was, but she has developed a NO GO problen when running blinds. I feel it is an avoidence issue because if I run a cold blind befor marks when she is fresh she never no go's if I run a double for the 2nd. setup with a blind and she is tired she'll no go, once I get her going (heel nick heel ) then she runs hard. Yesterday we revisited the force to the pile and I uped the pressure on the collar I gave her a free one and then" back nick back", two free ones and then" back nick back" by the fith one she was getting tired and no goed " heel nick heel" Sent and she went, she come's back and trys to lay down " heel nick heel" send again and she burns out there so I know she understands what is expected of her, tonight we did the same set up and I had no issues but did force 4 out of 12 sends> Sorry to be long winded but I wanted to give a detailed back ground to get the right answer. my question is how long should I continue forcing, being this has become habit for her when she is a little tired.?????
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[DL]

Bare with me because I'm not the most experienced trainer but seem to have an opinion anyway.

Once it is a tool that can be used to enforce a retrieve or to get a dog moving, my thinking is that you just use it when you need it. Forcing a dog when it is giving effort could result in the opposite of what you want, and that is a lack of effort.

 

[DL]

I thought of one other thing. If a dog is truely tired or extremely hot, it is probally not the best time to get into some sort of battle with them.

I might would ask myself why the dog is getting tired. If the dog is not a firebreather maybe she can't run a bunch a blinds like some of them, or maybe she is out of shape. If she hasn't ran in as little as a week or two that could be the case. My male is 5 and that is 35 in dog years. He is already slowing down and is out of shape. Endurance was never his strong suit anyway. I have a two year old that has endurance as a strong suit from the very beginning, but she is a little crazy. A seven year old would be 49. An out of shape 49 year old can't do much running.

 

[Miriam Wade]

I wrote a really long-winded reply, but deleted it because I rambled endlessly about Kate & that she started training at about the same age as your dog. She was almost 6 when we started. To not ramble-I'll just say I agree with both of DLs posts. If your dog is tired it's best not to push issues where you may not have a chance to end w/ success & her feeling she's learned something. More importantly (to me anyway) is that if (& here is where I agree w/ DL) she is running cold blinds for you-I'm not sure why you are doing force to pile.

I'd try & build her confidence back up because it sounds like overall she really works well for you & rewarding that will reap benefits. How about simple lining drills & pattern blinds where she's rewarded for barreling out & has nothing to confuse her or make her anticipate a correction so that she no goes or pops. If you want her to be a happy, stylish worker-put something back in training for her & end before she gets tired.

M

 

[paul young]

i would want to be sure there were no health issues.

she ain't no spring chicken......-paul

 

[Steve Hester]

I too agree that your dog needs some more confidence work. Back up and run some confidence blinds with her. Make it fun for her. Run some sight blinds, where she can see the bumpers from the line. Keep the blinds short for awhile. Then slowly move to some light cover, then heavier cover. And gradually lengthen the blinds. And don't forget to balance it out with marks. Don't just run blinds. I would probably lay off the collar for awhile too. Then later, when you KNOW for sure she has confidence on blinds, then if you need to use the collar, use it.

 

[Evan]

7 year-old dog: BB blinds, and lots of them! Pattern/taught blinds will get your dog going, but will do little to improve his attitude on cold blinds. They aren't the same things.

Evan

 

[Miriam Wade]

Evan wrote:

Pattern/taught blinds will get your dog going, but will do little to improve his attitude on cold blinds

Why? If they build confidence how will that not improve the dog's running cold blinds? If the whole concept of running blinds is to teach your dog that (ideally) taking that initial line ends in a bird-isn't a pattern/taught blind a great means to that end?

M

 

[BROWNDOGG]

Thanks for all the advice , physicaly she is in the best shape she has ever been in a lean 63 pounds, when I say tired I mean not fresh, a typical setup would be a double or two singles not to long (HRC group) and a blind, put the dog up and do another a little latter.

The reason I forced is because I felt she was quiting, not wanting to leave the line, once she gets going then she is fine, like I said she will try to lay down or look away and start chomping on grass, totall avoidence on her part. A monthe ago I quit running blinds and just ran marks with no pressure and made them as fun as posssible, but it really didn't change her blind attitude.

I think I'll try the BB blinds for awhile and see what that does for her. It's frustrating because she is very capible of running a finished level test if it were not for the No goes.
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[Doug Main]

Evan wrote:

Pattern/taught blinds will get your dog going, but will do little to improve his attitude on cold blinds

Why? If they build confidence how will that not improve the dog's running cold blinds? If the whole concept of running blinds is to teach your dog that (ideally) taking that initial line ends in a bird-isn't a pattern/taught blind a great means to that end?

M

Because as Even said "They aren't the same things." For a dog lining and casting to a KNOWN destination, is a LOT different than lining and casting to an UNKNOWN destination. Otherwise, dogs would all come off the double T as blind running machines. After all, they are confidently lining and casting on the double T "pattern". :wink:

 

[Miriam Wade]

Evan wrote:

Pattern/taught blinds will get your dog going, but will do little to improve his attitude on cold blinds

Why? If they build confidence how will that not improve the dog's running cold blinds? If the whole concept of running blinds is to teach your dog that (ideally) taking that initial line ends in a bird-isn't a pattern/taught blind a great means to that end?

M

Because as Even said "They aren't the same things." For a dog lining and casting to a KNOWN destination, is a LOT different than lining and casting to an UNKNOWN destination. Otherwise, dogs would all come off the double T as blind running machines. After all, they are confidently lining and casting on the double T "pattern". :wink:

Understood, but the original post mentioned a dog w/ confidence/popping issues, so I still think going to pattern/learned blinds would be a good thing. We can agree to disagree. :wink:

M

 

[Tim Carrion]

Evan wrote:

Pattern/taught blinds will get your dog going, but will do little to improve his attitude on cold blinds

Understood, but the original post mentioned a dog w/ confidence/popping issues, so I still think going to pattern/learned blinds would be a good thing. We can agree to disagree. :wink:

M[/quote

Unlike the 1 year old that may no-go due to lack confidence the 7 yo may lack interest. Pattern and known blinds get boring for older dogs. BB blinds, especially when short and varied add the element of surprise to make things more exciting.
IMHO BB blinds and leave your transmitter at home. Try to increase interest not obligation.

Tim

 

[DL]

Thanks for all the advice , physicaly she is in the best shape she has ever been in a lean 63 pounds, when I say tired I mean not fresh, a typical setup would be a double or two singles not to long (HRC group) and a blind, put the dog up and do another a little latter.

The reason I forced is because I felt she was quiting, not wanting to leave the line, once she gets going then she is fine, like I said she will try to lay down or look away and start chomping on grass, totall avoidence on her part. A monthe ago I quit running blinds and just ran marks with no pressure and made them as fun as posssible, but it really didn't change her blind attitude.

I think I'll try the BB blinds for awhile and see what that does for her. It's frustrating because she is very capible of running a finished level test if it were not for the No goes.

This may or may not be relevant, but I picked up a thing where as a general rule I don't send my dog on a mark he or she hasn't seen fall. I had someone advise me not to do that, so basically I try not to do it. There is different training involved with that I believe if it occurs often. I'm not saying that is what is happening, but some people do send on three marks and a blind and the dog hasn't seen a single one of them.

 

[Miriam Wade]

Evan wrote:

Pattern/taught blinds will get your dog going, but will do little to improve his attitude on cold blinds

Understood, but the original post mentioned a dog w/ confidence/popping issues, so I still think going to pattern/learned blinds would be a good thing. We can agree to disagree. :wink:

M[/quote

Unlike the 1 year old that may no-go due to lack confidence the 7 yo may lack interest. Pattern and known blinds get boring for older dogs. BB blinds, especially when short and varied add the element of surprise to make things more exciting.
IMHO BB blinds and leave your transmitter at home. Try to increase interest not obligation.

Tim

Tim-

I'm going back to pure GDG & being a Golden cheerleader after this :wink: , but just want to say I'm not trying to argue my point & apparently you guys feel BB blinds are the way to go. You all have a few more dogs & accomplishments under your belt, so I'm sure it's good advice. I just took his original post to mean that chronologically the dog is 7 years old, but like Kate, hadn't been trained from day one, so may need some refreshers & really simplifying things to make them fun again. I know of a few dogs who pop & spin chronically & I don't think they are ever given the advantage of being able to carry a straight line going 100 miles an hour w/out anticipating a correction. I know the dog does need to learn that sits & casts are part of the deal & needs to handle those w/ confidence too, but it just seemed to me like the dog needs to get past the no-goes & popping first w/out a lot of pressure.

Off to Find My Pom Poms & Bandanas Regards-

M