[Goldenboy]

Is it

A) Bringing more people into Field Trials
B) A short cut to QAA
C) Another AKC fee generating boondoggle
D) Your own opinion (please elaborate)

My club just ran it's annual Field Trial and, along with historically low numbers across all stakes, the Qualifying had particularly low entries at 17 given that the previous three years were 30, 40, 46. There was a competing Qual/Derby in New Jersey yet I don't understand why their entrants from New England chose the Trial further away than the one in their own backyard.

My non-scientific observations are that there are not any appreciable number of new participants in our regional trials. In fact, there seem to be quite a few less. There are several area Hunt Test Pros who run their own dogs in the O/H Quals and theirs and client dogs in D/Q trials. Why not "step up"? It also seems to me that there is an itinerant group of O/H Hunt Test Qual people who enter just the Quals but not necessarily the Hunt Test.

So, what gives?

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

There was a competing Qual/Derby in New Jersey

and at Empire and Westchester as well.
early in the year didn't "we" wish for a smaller trial
and say O.K. to one of the clubs on "our" weekend?
I think we did.
It was kinda cool not doing ribbons by truck headlights like a couple years back.
I think, like our hunt tests. The Great James Carville line works here.
"It's the economy stupid!" Your not stupid Mark, thats just the quote.
But as to the crux of your question.....
I do not know how many, if any, folk switched to trials 'cause of an O/H Q at a hunt test.
Still waiting for David's news letter report on our hunt test with info about the first O/H Q at ours.
it must have helped the tests bottom line?
bet he is miffed it got left out of our last news letter.

 

[Goldenboy]

Hey Ken,

No competing Trial at Westchester and Empire only had 5 entries and I don't know if they held the Stake. I wasn't part of the "we" wishing for a smaller Trial.

and at Empire and Westchester as well.
early in the year didn't "we" wish for a smaller trial
and say O.K. to one of the clubs on "our" weekend?
I think we did.
It was kinda cool not doing ribbons by truck headlights like a couple years back.
I think, like our hunt tests. The Great James Carville line works here.
"It's the economy stupid!" Your not stupid Mark, thats just the quote.
But as to the crux of your question.....
I do not know how many, if any, folk switched to trials 'cause of an O/H Q at a hunt test.
Still waiting for David's news letter report on our hunt test with info about the first O/H Q at ours.
it must have helped the tests bottom line?
bet he is miffed it got left out of our last news letter.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

......There was a competing Qual/Derby in New Jersey.......

No competing Trial at Westchester and Empire only had 5 entries.

hmmm, don't know what club then. But Gallery folk were saying there were 2 trials in N.Y. they could have gone to.
I just figgered Westchester. Your right, cant imagin drivin' to Jersey! UGH

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

Don't know any thing about why they had the O/H Qual associated with HT, but for me the date in Michigan August 31 was a good date for me to try again a Qual again. I believe there are 40 entries in the event.

 

[cpmm665]

Mid-Jersey's Q/D was held in Little Falls, NY. It wasn't an O/H Q. Empire did not hold a Derby Stake. I like the idea of an O/H Q at a hunt test. It offers exposure to the white coat game for folks who may not otherwise give it a shot. The HT pro's I see running in O/H Q's are also running in the regular variety Q's, that's good for the sport isn't? I fail to see how an O/H Q is a shortcut to QAA.

 

[helencalif]

I think the clubs see O/H Derbies and/or Quals at a hunt test as an opportunity for hunt test owner-handlers to be introduced to trials. It will not be a short cut to making a dog QAA if field trial judges are setting up the tests and judging. I imagine that the entries will be low and that the clubs offering Derbies or Q's at their hunt test hope to break even.

Helen

 

[savage25xtreme]

Is it

A) Bringing more people into Field Trials
B) A short cut to QAA
C) Another AKC fee generating boondoggle
D) Your own opinion (please elaborate)

My club just ran it's annual Field Trial and, along with historically low numbers across all stakes, the Qualifying had particularly low entries at 17 given that the previous three years were 30, 40, 46. There was a competing Qual/Derby in New Jersey yet I don't understand why their entrants from New England chose the Trial further away than the one in their own backyard.

My non-scientific observations are that there are not any appreciable number of new participants in our regional trials. In fact, there seem to be quite a few less. There are several area Hunt Test Pros who run their own dogs in the O/H Quals and theirs and client dogs in D/Q trials. Why not "step up"? It also seems to me that there is an itinerant group of O/H Hunt Test Qual people who enter just the Quals but not necessarily the Hunt Test.

So, what gives?

I can assure you it isn't option B. In my limited experience the HT quals are every bit as hard, and they have to be. We had 40+ dogs in our HT qual that had to finish in 1 day because both judges were either scheduled to gun or judge a different stake the next day.

I think there are a large number of HT folks that are intimidated by the people that run FTs.

Not to mention the economy, a weekend warrior like me can run a qual and a master (or 2) in the same weekend. Its considerably more appealing than driving 5 hours to a qual, going out in the first round to a bunch of folks that have been doing this 30 years or a pro that does this for a living. I can enter the HT O/H qual, see what happens and still run the master the next day.

 

[DoubleHaul]

Was it a double D/Q? They certainly can draw. 17 isn't too terribly low for a Q around these parts, perhaps just about average. 46 would be huge.

 

[DoubleHaul]

There was a "Pro" from Maine and one from Vermont running in Little Falls, NY. I don't know, but running a "regular variety" Q against all comers so much closer to home seems like a reasonable decision. Yet, they didn't.

Was it your judges?

 

[Julie R.]

...
My non-scientific observations are that there are not any appreciable number of new participants in our regional trials. In fact, there seem to be quite a few less. There are several area Hunt Test Pros who run their own dogs in the O/H Quals and theirs and client dogs in D/Q trials. Why not "step up"?

Yours is but one of several scathing innuendos posted here recently about pros running O/H or HT-associated Qs. Speaking of pros that I know, perhaps they'd love to "step up", but their client base is meat dogs and/or hunt test dogs and they don't have the luxury of time to train for FTs nor can they take time away from their livelihood to run FTs more than a couple of times a year. But they do support the local events and perhaps one or two of their own clients get interested in FTs because that pro does run dogs in the occasional Q. So I see them entering these events as a good thing.

Edited to add: Double D/Q in Virginia this wkd. had about 40 in each Q and 20-something in the derbies, including several HT pro-run dogs, along with quite a few HT people trying out FTs. I'm sure both clubs were happy to have them!

 

[Goldenboy]

Was it your judges?

I know that you meant to enter a smiley . I'm pretty sure our judges were as non-controversial as they come . I was merely using our trial as a jumping off point for a discussion of the benefit or detriment of O/H Quals at Hunt Tests to 4 stake licensed Field Trials, Field Trials in general, and the original intent of the QAA status.

 

[Zman1001]

I know that you meant to enter a smiley . I'm pretty sure our judges were as non-controversial as they come . I was merely using our trial as a jumping off point for a discussion of the benefit or detriment of O/H Quals at Hunt Tests to 4 stake licensed Field Trials, Field Trials in general, and the original intent of the QAA status.

Mark,

I am not sure I understand how an O/H Q would come into discussion regarding the outcome of your field trial.

The competing FT and HT in Little Falls, NY consisted of two separate events. One was a D/Q (not O/H) with both stakes on Friday, and then they also held a Full HT on Saturday and Sunday.

And your judges were definitely not the consideration of why one or more pros from your area would choose to run an event in NY instead of yours. The only thing I could think of was that the Pros were already there training, and chose to run the one closer to where they were located at that time.

There was a double D/Q in Virginia this past weekend where we had 39/40 Q dogs and 24/29 derby dogs. We pulled pros in from as far away as AL / FL / GA / SC / TX, but also had a good compliment of a few local pros who either run FT, or HT and FT. We certainly did not expect to have an entry like we had (expecting 20-25 Q dogs and 10-15 derby dogs), but somehow the stars lined up for us.

Now, to answer your question. What does an O/H Q offer to the FT world. It depends on what side of the fence you are on. If you are on the FT world (and I think you are), then they offer absolutely nothing. FT people think the dogs who are entered in the O/H event are considered to not be going up against the best dogs available, and therefore those dogs who get QAA do not deserve it. Maybe true. Maybe not.

For those people on the HT side, it may be a way to try something new that had not been considered before, or give them something to work towards with their dogs, since they may have accomplished their HT goals. It may be that they want to try their hand at the competition side, but not have the pressure of feeling like they have no chance against the Pro dogs. Who knows.

However, the further answer your question. I can personally say that I have seen at least 10 people in our club go from HT only to trying FT Q stakes as a result of the O/H Q that was first offered at our hunt test 2 years ago. And those dogs have successfully either placed or received green ribbons multiple times at 4 staked FT events. Just because you have not seen the new blood as a result of the O/H Q does not mean that it is not there.

 

[DoubleHaul]

I know that you meant to enter a smiley . I'm pretty sure our judges were as non-controversial as they come .

Not really, but I wasn't trying to be smart or offend. I don't know who your judges were and probably would not know them anyway since I don't run that circuit. But since you were wondering why someone drove past your trial to enter a D/Q, just throwing out possible reasons. IME, few FT folks seek out OHQs with HTs. We might be more willing to enter a HT if they also have a Q but would not pass by one of our regular FT stops to do so.

Double D/Qs always draw a lot, mostly for the double derby. I could see a single D/Q on the same day also doing well if it allowed folks to run another Derby at another trial on another day. Usually it is the derby folks chase since they want to get on the derby list, not the Q. I know some folks, mostly HT folks, who chase the Q to try to get their dog QAA but not many FT folks. Most FT folks just aren't that impressed by the designation. Many FT pros will run Qs just to get it as the dog is coming off derby--mostly for the owners--but I don't know any that would drive out of their way for a Q.

I would think that a HT with an OHQ would typically make no difference in a FT Q, so there must be some other reason.

 

[Goldenboy]

Zman and Doublehaul, I appreciate your responses. They both address some of my thought and concerns. It is encouraging to know that there are people crossing over from these events. I didn't realize that there was an associated Hunt Test at Little Falls, that explains some of their Q entries.

 

[John Kelder]

Where's Richard when we need him ??.. I am sure he is smiling as I type this...... Back in the day before HT , this weekend was known as the TRIPLE HEADER...With Long Island , Westchester and NJ each holding a 1 day D/Q ... Bragging rights were at stake .. You could make the derby list and QAA in the same weekend with more than one dog !!! .....Serious business ,stakes all within 100 miles or so of each other.... This is what those who didn't go south for the winter trained for all spring and summer .The question in the OP , short version , was .. WHY ? short answer - 'cause they can...... Showing my age regards.......

 

[H2O_Control_guy]

In my case I think you may get more people into the FT Game. I'm new to both so maybe I'm not smart enough to realize what I'm getting myself into. First off I like the HT game and will continue to run. That said, I've run 4 Qs this year 3 of which were OH. Best I've done is a 4th in an OH. The fact that you can compete against a darn good group of dogs (~25 in our area with many PRO trained and owner handled) and there is a winner in one day is attractive to me. I can speak from experience that the handling lessons you learn in a Q sting a bit more, but are easier to remember. In an HT you might get away with a mistake here and there and still pass in a Q handler mistakes tend to hasten your trip home.

 

[Todd Caswell]

Mark,

I am not sure I understand how an O/H Q would come into discussion regarding the outcome of your field trial.

The competing FT and HT in Little Falls, NY consisted of two separate events. One was a D/Q (not O/H) with both stakes on Friday, and then they also held a Full HT on Saturday and Sunday.

And your judges were definitely not the consideration of why one or more pros from your area would choose to run an event in NY instead of yours. The only thing I could think of was that the Pros were already there training, and chose to run the one closer to where they were located at that time.

There was a double D/Q in Virginia this past weekend where we had 39/40 Q dogs and 24/29 derby dogs. We pulled pros in from as far away as AL / FL / GA / SC / TX, but also had a good compliment of a few local pros who either run FT, or HT and FT. We certainly did not expect to have an entry like we had (expecting 20-25 Q dogs and 10-15 derby dogs), but somehow the stars lined up for us.

Now, to answer your question. What does an O/H Q offer to the FT world. It depends on what side of the fence you are on. If you are on the FT world (and I think you are), then they offer absolutely nothing. FT people think the dogs who are entered in the O/H event are considered to not be going up against the best dogs available, and therefore those dogs who get QAA do not deserve it. Maybe true. Maybe not.

For those people on the HT side, it may be a way to try something new that had not been considered before, or give them something to work towards with their dogs, since they may have accomplished their HT goals. It may be that they want to try their hand at the competition side, but not have the pressure of feeling like they have no chance against the Pro dogs. Who knows.

However, the further answer your question. I can personally say that I have seen at least 10 people in our club go from HT only to trying FT Q stakes as a result of the O/H Q that was first offered at our hunt test 2 years ago. And those dogs have successfully either placed or received green ribbons multiple times at 4 staked FT events. Just because you have not seen the new blood as a result of the O/H Q does not mean that it is not there.

Very good post, very close to how I would have said it. I would like to add one thing I would much rather Judge an O/H ANY day. Nothing and I mean Nothing bothers me more than waiting for a handler, when there is no reason to. Most of our help is all volunteer, I feel it's disrespectful to all involved to have to wait over an hour for a specific Pro or AM for that matter.. Never had that happen at an O/H. Iv'e seen Friday Derbys and Qual's go into Sat. because of the lack of respect of one handler. Maybe the club should send them a bill for the added expences of going into another day..

 

[Kelly Greenwood]

I may be wrong but possibly a few people might have gone to a HT/Q to qualify for next years master national, also a few field trial people might have gone if they judge HT because of the new upcoming requirements for HT judges to have handled and passed a dog at a HT within 7 years.
The master national has had a huge increase since the new AKC title was started

 

[Joe Dutro]

Our club- the Ohio Valley Retriever Club has held an O/H/Q in conjunction with our spring event the last 2 years now. Entries have been at 30 for both years. I believe some people like the OHQ at a HT as a way to get their feet wet with the white coat game. It may not be as intimadating for person running their first Q. Plus their with people they run with on regular HT weekend.

I see it as a plus for the clubs hosting them- more of a draw. And people running them- people who may otherwise not ever try a Q. Its good for the sport-and maybe someday some of these new people will make the jump to the FT game.