Thought I would start a little discussion about Obdedience. How do some of you do it? Also, what do you do with a "Green Dog" that has had absolutely no training prior to coming to you as a trainer? I have one of those now, the dog is all over the place....how do some of you trainers approach that?
Obedience Discussion
labman626
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Thought I would start a little discussion about Obdedience. How do some of you do it? Also, what do you do with a "Green Dog" that has had absolutely no training prior to coming to you as a trainer? I have one of those now, the dog is all over the place....how do some of you trainers approach that?
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I find it helpful to teach "sit" before here.
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You would FORGET the dogs' age and just train it...What it "should" know at it's age is irrelevant. It's all up to you to go through the basics, and nuthin' changes because of age. Get a checkcord on the dog, and don't make a command you're not in a position to enforce.. ever ;-)
Praise and reward.. with retrieving secondary as far as expectations untill you can get a handle on the Obedience end of things..Your goal-a trained retrieve ..not something the dog decides as to when and how....
You want to get to the point where you can transition the "want to" desires into "have to" in regards to Obedience..
Green dog- I'd probably have to get some Yellow/Black/ or Brown spraypaint...
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1) Nothing in life is free: * Earn everything with a "sit": food (meals and snacks/treats), out of crate/kennel, out-side the door, toys, etc...
2) Lure with prey item or food item to establish desired behavior (sit, down, here (front), walk along side as in heel). Keep it positive.
* Marker training; I use the word "yes" when desired position is accomplished.
* Expect little in terms of distraction tolerance and duration capabilities at first - patience is a virtue.
* Build after proofing at set criteria.
* Add verbal commands AFTER behaviors have been established
3) Add pressure to known commands after they are consistent (force after proofing).
4) Continued alternating schedule of re-enforcement for treats/praise/prey item rewards.
5) Balance rewards/praise and corrections once dog's understanding is clear.
*** There is a difference for correcting a dog that does not understand what you want and correcting a dog for dis-obeying ***
2) Lure with prey item or food item to establish desired behavior (sit, down, here (front), walk along side as in heel). Keep it positive.
* Marker training; I use the word "yes" when desired position is accomplished.
* Expect little in terms of distraction tolerance and duration capabilities at first - patience is a virtue.
* Build after proofing at set criteria.
* Add verbal commands AFTER behaviors have been established
3) Add pressure to known commands after they are consistent (force after proofing).
4) Continued alternating schedule of re-enforcement for treats/praise/prey item rewards.
5) Balance rewards/praise and corrections once dog's understanding is clear.
*** There is a difference for correcting a dog that does not understand what you want and correcting a dog for dis-obeying ***
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When things go well, at some point I think we need to ask whether a dog is doing something because 'he wants to', or because he's learned 'he has to'.
But, even if the dog is reliable on a certain 'cue', how does one know 'why' the dog does it - 'wants to', or 'has to'? (One has to ask that question of a species that has co-evolved with humans.) Can you really tell the difference if you haven't trained the dog in question..and even then?
Is it possible a dog does something 'he has to' because 'he wants to'?
I've seen both sides, me thinks. Dogs that experience 'force/pressure' training do something other. Dogs that don't experience 'force/pressure' training do something other.
On both sides of the aisle, I think our own philosophy and training approaches shade our interpretation of the results of our training.
BTW - I think 'Sit' is a wonderful command. There are so many things a dog CAN'T DO while 'sitting'.
Musing...
Chuck
But, even if the dog is reliable on a certain 'cue', how does one know 'why' the dog does it - 'wants to', or 'has to'? (One has to ask that question of a species that has co-evolved with humans.) Can you really tell the difference if you haven't trained the dog in question..and even then?
Is it possible a dog does something 'he has to' because 'he wants to'?
I've seen both sides, me thinks. Dogs that experience 'force/pressure' training do something other. Dogs that don't experience 'force/pressure' training do something other.
On both sides of the aisle, I think our own philosophy and training approaches shade our interpretation of the results of our training.
BTW - I think 'Sit' is a wonderful command. There are so many things a dog CAN'T DO while 'sitting'.
Musing...
Chuck
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Wow - thats gettin Deep Snick.
Swampbilly:
"don't make a command you're not in a position to enforce.. ever"
sooo true!
Swampbilly:
"don't make a command you're not in a position to enforce.. ever"
sooo true!
G
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·You said you're a trainer, right? Um...
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Haven't even scratched the surface...Wow - thats gettin Deep Snick.
Swampbilly:
"don't make a command you're not in a position to enforce.. ever"
sooo true!
Deep Snick
G
Guest
·Not sure if that comment was directed towards me or not. Never said I was a trainer. Just said that I have dog now that is all over the place that I am training. The dog belongs to me. He is a chocolate male that was giving to me so I am working with him and going to give him to my brother. Just curious how everyone teaches obedience.
G
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·Sorry, my bad. Just going by what I interpreted in your original post. Best of luck with the pup.
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Thanks, Melanie. Ouch!, but a fair question. I see the OP has clarified.
OP, the end goal is the same for a pup or an older dog. One difference is the accumulated learnded experience, both good and bad, of the older dog.
What is required...clarity, extreme consitency, and extreme maintenance of a standard, once learned (please note, this need not be harsh...but, it must be fair). Be patient, be smart, and be consistent.
Other than that...same, same training techniques...IMHO!
Chuck
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I got some doozies in all 3 colors here when I did rescue fosters (I'd get the unwanted ones on death row). Several required a VERY firm no nonsense approach (I'd tie their leash around my waste and enforce heel w/o pulling, etc) as they knew no rules in their former lives apparently. Fortunately none had aggressive tendencies toward people, so I got away w/ the direct, "my way or the highway", approach. I saw great strides in no time. I had adopters who took some of the worst ones insist they had to have had more than the 2-3 wks training they had here (nope). IOW, I agree w/ whoever just said to be CLEAR, FAIR but CONSISTENT with this dog. I think you'll find most labs will come around to your way of thinking very quickly, esp when you are the one in charge of filling the bowl. Good luck! Anne
IOW, I agree w/ whoever just said to be CLEAR, FAIR but CONSISTENT with this dog. I think you'll find most labs will come around to your way of thinking very quickly, esp when you are the one in charge of filling the bowl. Good luck! Anne
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..I can certainly appreciate your thoughts, 'Snick.. nicely said..Thanks for the opportunity to comment..
I think just about everyone begins training pups with the "want to" mindset, and this is how most begin building a great bond with a pup, whether you're a Trialer, in to HT's, Family dog, or a Bird /Duckhunter.. Praise, proper dicipline, and consistantcy with a pup/dog early in life to me..are the main ingredients for a confident, well rounded retriever later..
In a perfect world, our pups would grow up as dogs and continue those wonderful "want to" desires throughout it's life....without any kind of pressure at all
...We just took a break from reality with that thought...Or at least, I just did ....Those cute pups grow up into a dog..and without any guidance, will only live to please itself, on it's own schedule, it's own agenda, and do things at it's own convenience, leaving want to.. a decision all it's own,...and your "want to's", and desires as secondary, depending on what you're asking of the dog through repetition or attrition..He'll crawl up in your lap because he wants to..but he won't run a blind because he "wants to"...Some things we ask of our dogs aren't auto-programmed from birth..
When things become a "have-to" and the dog becomes more successful having to do it...I begin to see a more confident/successful dawg that will come SIT beside me for a head-scratching moment.. licking my hand in between head scratches.... all because he "wants to" soak up all of the attention, including a good back scratching that's hard to pass up or resist.....Heck,...he just had to...... ;-)
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+ve reenforcement - food/praise
-ve reenforcement - pinch collar, then electric
in that order...
now if I could just use negative on the wife
-ve reenforcement - pinch collar, then electric
in that order...
now if I could just use negative on the wife
I find that Mike Gould's waist cord is the single best tool that I have found to train obedience and gain control of dogs that are a little older. It's simple to use and the dogs learn quik from it. Check it out in his book "The Labrador Shooting Dog"
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