[67632]

Hi there. New to the site; just a lurker on occasion. Also new to the sport. Have a question about use of the term "pressure" in field training and trying to understand what that means and the importance of it. I've never quite understood it and when I look it up online I read terms like "physical domination" and such. I have often heard people say "you need to teach a dog to turn off the pressure" and when I've asked what that means, I've never received an answer. Thanks!

 

[bamajeff]

Pressure can come in various forms. Force(ear pinch, electric collar stimulation, heeling stick, etc), voice volume, even attrition. It is important because it teaches a dog to think through difficult situations(distractions, factors like wind, scent, terrain, suction of an old fall, etc) and still perform reliably. As far as teaching a dog to turn off pressure, I started first with leash pressure. Pull up on the leash when you want the dog to sit. The instant their butt touches the ground, release leash pressure. When we started collar conditioning, I started with the Here command. I had the collar on a low level with the dog on check cord I would put her on remote sit and command "Here" and start continuous stimulation with the collar simultaneously while pulling her to me with check cord. The instant she got to my side, I would release collar stimulation. Didn't take her long to figure out how to turn it off. We then proceeded to sit and then heel, which had already been established on lead. Hope this helps.

 

[Don Lietzau]

Pretty big topic. I suggest you buy the Smart Works or the Total Retriever System DVD series and study them. You will find your answer there.
Don and Crew

 

[67632]

Pressure can come in various forms. Force(ear pinch, electric collar stimulation, heeling stick, etc), voice volume, even attrition. It is important because it teaches a dog to think through difficult situations(distractions, factors like wind, scent, terrain, suction of an old fall, etc) and still perform reliably. As far as teaching a dog to turn off pressure, I started first with leash pressure. Pull up on the leash when you want the dog to sit. The instant their but touches the ground, release leash pressure. When we started collar conditioning, I started with the Here command. I had the collar on a low level with the dog on check cord I would put her on remote sit and command "Here" and start continuous stimulation with the collar simultaneously while pulling her to me with check cord. The instant she got to my side, I would release collar stimulation. Didn't take her long to figure out how to turn it off. We then proceeded to sit and then heel, which had already been established on lead. Hope this helps.

So, you're saying that teaching a dog to turn on/of pressure also teaches the dog to problem solve?

 

[bamajeff]

So, you're saying that teaching a dog to turn on/of pressure also teaches the dog to problem solve?

Yes, it teaches them to think through stressful situations which can help them be better problem solvers, but the most important result of a pressure conditioned dog is that they will reliably perform the command given(Fetch, Sit, Go, Come, Take Casts) no matter what circumstances they are faced with(ie: ducks flying, guns going off, distractions during retrieves, etc).

On the problem solving issue, I believe the way most dogs become really good problem solvers is through training and repetition. The more marks and blinds with factors/concepts that dogs see, the better they learn to deal with those situations when it counts. Obviously some become much better at it(problem solving) than others.

 

[67632]

Yes, it teaches them to think through stressful situations which can help them be better problem solvers, but the most important result of a pressure conditioned dog is that they will reliably perform the command given(Fetch, Sit, Go, Come, Take Casts) no matter what circumstances they are faced with(ie: ducks flying, guns going off, distractions during retrieves, etc)

How does pressure conditioning a dog teach it to reliably sit, go, come and take casts? I understand how FF is supposed to work with the retrieve.

I like to know how, the psychology of it.

 

[bamajeff]

How does pressure conditioning a dog teach it to reliably sit, go, come and take casts? I understand how FF is supposed to work with the retrieve.

I like to know how, the psychology of it.

This would be WAY too lengthy of an answer to go through here. I agree with Don that you should purchase Lardy(TRT), Fowl Dawgs(Stawski), or Smartwork(Graham) and watch how a dog is conditioned to pressure. Would be much more effective seeing it than what the written word can convey.

 

[67632]

This would be WAY too lengthy of an answer to go through here. I agree with Don that you should purchase Lardy(TRT), Fowl Dawgs(Stawski), or Smartwork(Graham) and watch how a dog is conditioned to pressure. Would be much more effective seeing it than what the written word can convey.

I am not a force trainer and work with a pro who supports me and a few others in no force field training. Many of my friends are force trainers and I hear all the time about pressure in field work, just no explanation, especially when it comes to the big picture. Nothing about my dog or his performance, just about field training in general. Thinking about our next steps and if we are missing anything. I teach my dog to problem solve and deal with stress and reliability during performance in other ways. Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it!

 

[BJGatley]

This will give you an idea of how it is used.

http://www.scienceclarified.com/Qu-Ro/Reinforcement-Positive-and-Negative.html

 

[bamajeff]

I am not a force trainer and work with a pro who supports me and a few others in no force field training. Many of my friends are force trainers and I hear all the time about pressure in field work, just no explanation, especially when it comes to the big picture. Nothing about my dog or his performance, just about field training in general. Thinking about our next steps and if we are missing anything. I teach my dog to problem solve and deal with stress and reliability during performance in other ways. Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it!

Depends on what your goals are, I guess. There is a reason that very, very, few dogs that have been trained without force have reached FC, AFC, NFC, GRHRCH, MNH titles. Don't think any have reached FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC under no force training. To each his own.

 

[captainjack]

"Teach the dog to turn off the pressure" or more accurately avoid the pressure, means the dog is taught that by swiftly performing the given command, there will be no correction.

The topic of pressure is way more complex, but that should answer your specific question.

 

[BonMallari]

Depends on what your goals are, I guess. There is a reason that very, very, few dogs that have been trained without force have reached FC, AFC, NFC, GRHRCH, MNH titles. Don't think any have reached FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC under no force training. To each his own.

and you would be incorrect, I know of at least 17 champions, FC or AFC, which also included an NAFC, CNFC that were not force fetched or collar trained and add another 6 to that total that weren't collar trained, but FF

 

[Bryan Parks]

Depends on what your goals are, I guess. There is a reason that very, very, few dogs that have been trained without force have reached FC, AFC, NFC, GRHRCH, MNH titles. Don't think any have reached FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC under no force training. To each his own.

Im curious to know if all of Hillmann's dogs were FFed.

 

[ErinsEdge]

[/COLOR][/B]

and you would be incorrect, I know of at least 17 champions, FC or AFC, which also included an NAFC, CNFC that were not force fetched or collar trained and add another 6 to that total that weren't collar trained, but FF

I'd like to see which ones the 17 were (if they were after 2000) Bon

 

[BonMallari]

I'd like to see which ones the 17 were (if they were after 2000) Bon

FC AFC Hiwood Jaguar MH was not FF nor collar trained...Roy put a collar on Jag during the last years of his life when his health and sight was deteriorating

 

[Breck]

I like to know how, the psychology of it.

.
If you really want to understand the psychology behind modern Carr based retriever training start with reading up on Skinner "Operant conditioning".
Once you have a grasp of the 4 quadrants (P+, P-, R+ R-) and how they relate to dog behavior and learning you will understand why vast majority of successful trainers are Not positive only.
.

 

[Breck]

[/COLOR][/B]

and you would be incorrect, I know of at least 17 champions, FC or AFC, which also included an NAFC, CNFC that were not force fetched or collar trained and add another 6 to that total that weren't collar trained, but FF

.
I call BS. While maybe not FF or collar trained you can bet they were not positive only. Trainers wore out sneakers pre collar. No FF or collar does not emphatically mean no force training.

 

[BonMallari]

.
I call BS. While maybe not FF or collar trained you can bet they were not positive only. Trainers wore out sneakers pre collar. No FF or collar does not emphatically mean no force training.

Breck, the statement made was in regards to Force Fetch...I NEVER claimed that Roy's,Clint's, or George's dogs were trained positive only...You made that inference

 

[Breck]

Breck, the statement made was in regards to Force Fetch...I NEVER claimed that Roy's,Clint's, or George's dogs were trained positive only...You made that inference

.
Wrong. Your post was a counter to bamajeff's point about no fc-afc etc without Force.

 

[ErinsEdge]

The OP was a "non-force" trainer. Even old school, tennis shoe involves force as written in post #2. They did not specify force was collar or FF only.