[overtothetruck]

Puppy is 10 months. Started to no go on me when we were working some longer water marks. Like an idiot I resorted to pressure to get her in the water since I had thought it was a refusal. Now she's no-going me on everything. Even hand tossed bumpers. After 3 or 4 times of calling her name she'll eventually go and retrieve. No problems with force fetch or picking up fun bumpers. But just sitting still and waiting for her name to be called is where she gets hung up. Help please! Thanks in advance!

(bg: using farmer program. finished w/FF and am waiting to start casting and FTP when I resolve this issue.)

 

[DarrinGreene]

Fliers and let her break

 

[Wayne Nutt]

What are you using for marks? Are they remote launched? What do you consider as long water marks?

 

[John Robinson]

Fliers and let her break

This! You need to make it fun again.

Now you know you have a dog that doesn't want to get in trouble. Build up the excitement now work on rules later. Really think before using pressure, make sure the dog understands exactly what you want, make everyone crystal clear. She clearly got the wrong idea with that correction.

 

[polmaise]

( finished w/FF and am waiting to start casting and FTP when I resolve this issue.)

? .....So FF is done with the 10 month old puppy , and you are waiting to start casting and FTP ,when you resolve the issue of a 'No-Go' . Is that right?..

 

[John Robinson]

? .....So FF is done with the 10 month old puppy , and you are waiting to start casting and FTP ,when you resolve the issue of a 'No-Go' . Is that right?..

Good point, by skipping FTP the tool wasn't built in for the dog to understand the correction for the balk at the waters edge. There's a reason programs sequence tasks the way they do. You have to step by step build up the toolbox in the dog's head.

 

[Tobias]

What kind of pressure was used? Will the pup do stand alone marks? Are the no goes with her at your side? Will she retrieve normally for another person/handler?

 

[polmaise]

Good point, by skipping FTP the tool wasn't built in for the dog to understand the correction for the balk at the waters edge. There's a reason programs sequence tasks the way they do. You have to step by step build up the toolbox in the dog's head.

There is a reason why a sequential process is necessary to be in place , not necessarily any program sequence , as in this case ;-).. the poster said they are 'following one' . clearly it's not giving the result intended for them and their dog .

 

[Daren Galloway]

There is a reason why a sequential process is necessary to be in place , not necessarily any program sequence , as in this case ;-).. the poster said they are 'following one' . clearly it's not giving the result intended for them and their dog .

Not giving the intended result? The OP isn't anywhere near far enough into the program for it to give ANY result to this situation, much less the intended result.

 

[polmaise]

Not giving the intended result? The OP isn't anywhere near far enough into the program for it to give ANY result to this situation, much less the intended result.

"Puppy is 10 months. Started to no go on me when we were working some longer water marks. Like an idiot I resorted to pressure to get her in the water since I had thought it was a refusal. Now she's no-going me on everything. Even hand tossed bumpers. After 3 or 4 times of calling her name she'll eventually go and retrieve. No problems with force fetch or picking up fun bumpers. But just sitting still and waiting for her name to be called is where she gets hung up.
How far in does the OP have to go in the program before a result Darren ?

 

[ErinsEdge]

Loosing your temper and taking it out on the dog is NEVER a part of any program sequence. You can't figure that out?

 

[Doug Main]

"Puppy is 10 months. Started to no go on me when we were working some longer water marks. Like an idiot I resorted to pressure to get her in the water since I had thought it was a refusal. Now she's no-going me on everything. Even hand tossed bumpers. After 3 or 4 times of calling her name she'll eventually go and retrieve. No problems with force fetch or picking up fun bumpers. But just sitting still and waiting for her name to be called is where she gets hung up.
How far in does the OP have to go in the program before a result Darren ?

I'm not Darren, but at a minimum the dog should understand the correction! in this case the dog should have at least been through force to pile, water force and preferably, swim- by, before a collar correction is used on a water mark.

 

[polmaise]

Loosing your temper and taking it out on the dog is NEVER a part of any program sequence. You can't figure that out?

I can't see where the Op has lost their temper or taken that loss of temper out on the dog in the post?, I can see that they may well not understand why the dog is not responding to what is being asked , but that's (imo) where the issue has arisen.

 

[Randy Bohn]

I would check back on the "steadying up my dog" thread and ask the people who said steadying up is a good thing and ask them.....NOW WHAT.....i see one person already changed their mind about breaking dogs is ok again....

I would shorten up your distance and let them break....last thing you need is to correct your dog in anyway shape or form at a young tender age on water...you can steady up your dog later....I promise....Randy (And I stand by my statement....let them have fun)

 

[Daren Galloway]

"Puppy is 10 months. Started to no go on me when we were working some longer water marks. Like an idiot I resorted to pressure to get her in the water since I had thought it was a refusal. Now she's no-going me on everything. Even hand tossed bumpers. After 3 or 4 times of calling her name she'll eventually go and retrieve. No problems with force fetch or picking up fun bumpers. But just sitting still and waiting for her name to be called is where she gets hung up.
How far in does the OP have to go in the program before a result Darren ?

See Doug Main's response.

 

[Evans Creek]

There is no one or two sentence answer that can fix this. And, without seeing the dog these suggestions are just that, suggestions. Here is something to think about though. First off live bird chasing to make sure the drive is still there. You also need to to finish force to pile. You said you used pressure because you thought it was a refusal but if you have not properly forced to pile then your pup had no idea what the pressure was for. If you do not go to FTP and complete it properly you will have a dog that shuts down with pressure or when confused. Neither are wanted if training any dog. If it were mine, I would go back to what is familiar to the dog. FF, then go into FTP all while allowing for free bird chases in different sessions. Once out of FTP I would start with short marks in the yard then after several successful sessions move back to the field. I would not throw a water mark again until this is done. The reason for not doing that before is that you have no idea what the pup associated that correcrion or pressure with, it could have been the water in her mind that trigger this. So to fix this you short sessions that end in success to build confidence and clarity. Again without seeing the dog this is all speculation.

 

[DarrinGreene]

I would check back on the "steadying up my dog" thread and ask the people who said steadying up is a good thing and ask them.....NOW WHAT.....i see one person already changed their mind about breaking dogs is ok again....

If I'm wrong about this forgive me but I am assuming you are referring to the post I wrote on the other thread about shaping steady behavior through reward. If you have something to say to me - feel free to give me a call.

 

[polmaise]

I'm not Darren, but at a minimum the dog should understand the correction! in this case the dog should have at least been through force to pile, water force and preferably, swim- by, before a collar correction is used on a water mark.

But in this case ..The dog didn't understand a correction ! ? .. It refused. Or was confused ?, or took the right decision of ' well if I do nothin, I ain't done wrong' ? ..
Perhaps the dog didn't understand appraisal rather than correction ?...after all it's a puppy ;-)... who has been through FF .
....
It may well , 'should have been through FTP water force and swim by, but it wasn't. That don't make the dog or the handler right or wrong , and 'Farmer' ain't wrong in his program ,is he ?....

 

[jrrichar]

To the OP: Do you know why the steps in the program exist? Why you FF, FTP, TT, water force, etc? Do you know the difference between confusion and disobedience? Do you know how to setup marks? What was the objective of your water mark and making them longer?

If you do not know the answers to these questions find someone to train with that does, for your dog's sake. You know you made a mistake, make sure you don't continue to. Many good resources on this forum use them by giving us a general geographic location to give you recommendations.

 

[bamajeff]

It may well , 'should have been through FTP water force and swim by, but it wasn't. That don't make the dog or the handler right or wrong , and 'Farmer' ain't wrong in his program ,is he ?....

If you can find a program, a pro trainer, or even an successful amateur that endorses giving collar corrections for a no go on water to a puppy at this stage of training, I will buy you a pint. And I disagree totally, in this case giving a correction at this stage ABSOLUTELY makes the handler wrong. He knows it and said so in the original post.