Stick the fork in it....IT"S DONE
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Honda Pilot (ATV) specifications

 

I can't believe we are on page 9...

 

Trinity,; best of luck with the marketing of your $5000 pups. An old marketing adage is that something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

I'm not in the market for a puppy right now, however I might be interested in the list of people who purchase your $5000 puppies.

P.T. Barnum regards

 

trinity, I commend you in trying to get all the health clearances etc.. That is great. I am sure there are fc/afc titled females that have all that. I don't care to take the time to find out and list who they are. One thing to consider though is that not all of those things you listed are a requirement for people to buy a certain pup. For example, I have a cnm carrier pup and would buy another from the right breeding in a heart beat.

Now from your second part of your post, what I think you are saying is that a dog doesn't have to have both parents be fc/afc's to be successful. If that is what you are saying, you are absolutely correct, that is evident on the derby list and purina list every year. It is not a requirement to be out of a fc/afc dam to become a FC. I am pretty sure there have been more titled dogs born to non titled bitches than titled bitches. Why?, cause there are more of them. However with as competetive as these games are, people are wanting more and more to start with the best they can. The track record of both parents weighs into that.

One other thing, out of all those dogs you listed, how much do you think the most expensive one out of all those cost as a puppy? I have no idea.

 

Yes and how many off that list paid $5000 for them as puppies?

 

For me you can have all the testing in the world knee caps, duel microchips etc.. and the health will always be a roll of the dice due to the nature and inheritance of many problems, so if your paying top dollar for a competitive retriever it better be 2 top retrievers breeding. Just curious have you called the CKC to find out about registraion?

 

Can anyone out there tell me of one titled female that they know of that has OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, normal patella, normal thyroid, normal cardiac, CNM non-carrier, PRA non-carrier, DNA Profiled, Registered in the AKC, UKC and CKC & DNA Profiled, two different microchips for USA and Canada, and tattooed so that anyone can verify that she is the dam of any offspring? To me these qualities are extremely important, just as important as pedigree and titles. Who wants to spend thousands of dollars only to find out that the pup has a major health problem or is injury prone.

Lets talk about Hall of Fame dogs from titled fathers and non-titled dams, you have 1. FC Anzac Of Zenith 2. FC Black Panther neither titled parent 3. 1967 NFC-AFC Butte Blue Moon had neither titled parent 4. FC AFC CFC CAFC Candlewood's Mad Mouse 5. 92NFC 90NAFC Candlewood's Super Tanker 6. 3XNFC AFC Candlewoods Tanks A Lot 7. FC Canuck Crest Cutty Sark non-titled dam 8. FC-AFC Carnmoney Brigadier 9. FC AFC Carr-Lab Washington's Weeko 10. FC AFC Code Blue non-titled dam 11. NFC AFC CFC Cork Of Oakwood Lane 12. 70 NFC AFC Creole Sister neither titled parent 13. FC AFC Dairy Hill's Night Cap 14. 61 & 63 NFC-AFC-CNFC Del-Tone Colvin 15. 60 NFC AFC Dolobran's Smoke Tail 16. 81 NAFC FC Dude's Double Or Nothin' '74NDC 17. FC AFC Dust Devil's Shoot The Moon 18. FC CFC DuxBak Scooter 19. FC AFC E-Lynn's Super Strike Lucky 20. 77 NFC AFC Euroclydon 21. FC AFC Glengarvin's Mik 22. FC AFC CFC Grady's Shadee Ladee 23. 69 NAFC FC CFC Guy's Bitterroot Lucky 24. Am-Can Dual CH Happy Playboy 25. 98 NAFC FC Hattie McBunn 26. FC AFC CFC CAFC Hiwood Piper 27. 88CNFC FC AFC Hiwood Piper Pacer's Pic 82NDC 28. 88 NAFC FC Honky Tonk Hero 29. FC AFC Ironwood Tarnation 30. FC AFC Itchin' To Go 31. FC-AFC-CNFC-CAFC Jalva's Sweet Sharmain 84 CNFC 32. FC AFC Jetstone Muscles of Claymar 33. 52 & 53 NFC AFC King Buck 34. FC AFC Lakeridge's Charlemagne 35. 79 & 80 NAFC FC Lawhorn's Cadillac Mack 36. '97 NFC-AFC Lucyana's Fast Willie 92 NDC 37. 54 NFC 57NAFC CFC Major VI 38. 56 NFC AFC Massie's Sassy Boots neither titled parent 39. FC Michelle 40. FC AFC Nakai Anny 41. '58 NFC DUAL & AFC Nilo Possibility 42. FC AFC Nodrog Penny 43. 89 NFC AFC Otus Of Redfern 44. 63 NAFC FC Pepper's Jiggs 45. 88 NFC AFC PP's Lucky's Super Toby 46. 1974 NAFC-FC Ray's Rascal 69-NDC 47. 72 &75 NAFC 3XCNFC River Oaks Corky 67NDC 48. 1977 NAFC-FC River Oaks Rascal 70-NDC 49. FC AFC CFC Rocky Road Of Zenith 50. 72 NFC AFC Royal's Moose's Moe 51. 76 NFC AFC San Joaquin Honcho 52. FC Shamrock Acres Super Value 53. FC AFC Sir Mike Of Orchard View 54. 57 & 59 NFC Spirit Lake Duke 55. 2XNAFC-68NFC Super Chief 56. FC AFC Tarblood Of Absaraka neither titled parent 57. FC AFC Tigathoe's Mainliner Mariah 58. FC AFC CFC Trieven Thunderhead 59. FC AFC Truckee's Nitro Chief neither titled parent 60. 84 NAFC FC Trumarc's Zip Code 61. Volwood's Ruff And Reddy 62. FC AFC Webshire's Honest Abe 63. 82 NFC AFC Westwind Supernova Chief 64. 57CNFC FC AFC Yankee Clipper of Reo Raj
There are about 20 more that I don't know about but this makes over half of all hall of fame retrievers have only 1 or no titled parents.

 

Can anyone out there tell me of one titled female that they know of that has OFA excellent hips, normal elbows, normal patella, normal thyroid, normal cardiac, CNM non-carrier, PRA non-carrier, DNA Profiled, Registered in the AKC, UKC and CKC & DNA Profiled, two different microchips for USA and Canada, and tattooed so that anyone can verify that she is the dam of any offspring? To me these qualities are extremely important, just as important as pedigree and titles. Who wants to spend thousands of dollars only to find out that the pup has a major health problem or is injury prone.

As one who breeds 1-2 litters per year and hopes to break even, I know that I cannot break even and do everything I believe is important from a health screening, sire selection, and puppy care perspective unless I realize close to $800-1000/pup assuming a significant champion as the sire. If I am buying from a breeder that makes a living from selling pups, I fully expect to pay more to provide a reasonable profit for a quality breeding. I applaud your obvious commitment to trying to do the job right. However, it seems to me that you are spending a lot of effort to try to convince RTF'ers that a Pachanga Magnum Force breeding to a junior hunt test female is worth $5000 for a black, chocolate factored male pup. I can't think of any argument that would be successful. More importantly, there's no need for convincing people on this board since all that really matters is whether you can find two people willing to pay that much for Magnum pups. If you can, I think that's great. I wish you the best in finding great homes for the pups.

 

Ann,
That's the "missing link" in the genetics that we don't understand. But I know know one thing for sure, Dick's bitch got it from her Momma. Who is currently marking the popcorn coming out of the air popper.

John
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Dodge B-series van

 

But I know know one thing for sure, Dick's bitch got it from her Momma. Who is currently marking the popcorn coming out of the air popper.

John

LOL! Our golden thinks popcorn is the greatest thing ever!

 

i believe good deals can be found i couldn't pay that much for a pup but thats just me. i waited and shopped around and found a GRHRCH X HRCH for 500. i was and still am very happy

 

Pardon me, I miss quoted, "Only vital trait".

I don't think it is,,, but that's my opinion. We didn't wait for geldings to retire, we bought stallions that were sound and performing out of good breedings, not great, but darn good.

Angie

 

I would argue your position that race horses only need speed. I trained races horses for 15 years. They need whole lot more than that.

They need brains and a physical structure that can endure.

Angie

 

Angie, being an ex horse person, who was into horse racing for a period of years (ex boyfriend father was one of the top trainers in Australia at the time)........I did not type ONLY. I used to go to the big race meetings, not to bet, not to eat and drink in the members enclosure, but to search for good prospects. Problem was the fast and smart horses did well, so I had to wait patiently until the geldings retired. They had to be sound as well as the end of their careers.

 

Have been reading this with interest - someone mentioned that if the pup was going to spend its whole life with a pro it could be a good investment to spend more. Made me wonder how many of your top performing dogs do spend all their time with a pro? Must be a bit like owning a race horse but hopefully not quite so precarious!

 

pmw, can I add to your post?


Race horses need one vital trait - speed

I have always wondered when MARKING is of primary importance, why this trait does not seem to have a more solid genetic basis.

Wondering also, how many AKC hunt test dogs wash due to poor marking ability?

Slow Sunday morning. Should be out training LOL.

 

Buzz wrote:

"Apparently I made a failed attempt at sarcasm."


I thought it was funny. Did I miss something?

Bill

 

Julie, I agree. That will be quite a trick to get that asking price with those credentials, regardless of the owner's investment.

I have said before and will say again. What looks good on paper isn't necessarily a recipe for success. Whatever gene combination that those dogs with FC-AFC in front of their name got from the gene pool isn't always the same--even in full siblings. What makes one dog an FC and another a brood bitch isn't always, not even sometimes, "just circumstances". With exception of those litters that produced multiple FC-AFC dogs, most are just a crap shoot. IMHO you just have a better set of odds with the FC-AFC titles on both parents than without.

 

Vicki,
I don't think anyone on this thread begrudges the price of a pup out of an FC AFC dam; that wasn't the issue here. Anyone who put those titles on a bitch isn't probably making $$ off a litter anyway. The litter in question had an asking price of $5000 per puppy out of an SHR female. I just don't see much 'demand' for that--but if Trinity can get it I'd like to borrow some of her marketing techniques! ;-)

 

One of the reasons that there are not more frequent litters of FC x FC or FC-AFC x FC-AFC is that the market for the price of these pups IS limited. Also, the owners normally prefer to run their dogs since they are that good, instead of breeding their dogs.

I'm constantly amazed by the number of people who think that because they, personally, wouldn't want to do it, that no one else should consider it! If your budget or mind set doesn't allow expenditure for hi-dollar puppies, why should you feel compelled to make those who do, or those who have expensive litters your targets? Why can't those who want (or don't want as the case may be) to do something or refrain from doing something just do/not do and let it go at that?

It's no different than the person who decides to buy a stripped-down model Ford or Chevy vs. the person who will only drive a Lincoln or Cadillac. There is no right or wrong here--just personal preference and economics. The breeders of FC-AFC females will continue to price their litters higher than the average price of competitively-bred puppies without a titled mama, and those who believe this gives them the edge in field trial competition will continue to buy them! The market with less demands on the performance results will probably find that less expensive pups from untitled females will better suit their needs.

I'm sure there are many litters that are moderately priced (as Ann cited in her previous post) that will make wonderful hunting partners, hunt test competitors, and often field trial competitors. It's all a matter of preference and economics.

 

Nicely bred pups with health clearances and guarantees can be found iin our area for between $500 - $1000. I'm not saying these are pups that will make FC AFC at age 2 or go to a Nat'l/Nat'l Am year after year (but one never knows). They are "nice" pups.

 

Correct you are Julie R

There are only so many people buying $2000.00 dogs let alone $5000.00 regardless of pedigree. The ability to get someone to pay what you think they are worth and not fair market value is called SALESMANSHIP.....If you can get twice the price for 1/2 the product good for you. I'M JEALOUS.

John who will soon be selling every puppy for $400.00
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extreme vaporizer

 

I think the thing Trinity is missing about puppy prices is they are set by the market, not the cost of the AI or the amount of pups in the litter or whether or not the bitch has to have a $1000 emergency c-section. None of these things make the puppies worth more to anyone but the seller.

A puppy is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, not some amount of money the breeder thinks they need to recoup expenses. There is always a risk to the bitch owner with any breeding and spending anything over $1500-2000 on a stud fee for an unproven dam is one of those risks if the goal of the litter was to make money.

 

I don't know about a lot of folks , but I'd have a hard time giving $5000.00 for a pup out of a 4 yr old SHR titled bitch - regardless who she was bred to. Now a FC /AFC titled bitch would be a different story
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Tavera

 

Trinitylabs,

Really, there are enough of us on this forum who know exactly what goes into raising a litter both in terms of time and money. If you want a standing round of applause for your efforts, you are not going to get it here.

Best of luck for a healthy litter of pups.

 

I realize that plenty of the people that read this forum are well informed, and no I am not wanting a round of applause. However, not everyone knows as much as you obviously think you do, or need to thrash out at us that are trying to explain the reasons for such diverse prices. I just aimed on educating the person that actually asked the question, not you that already know it all.

Most of us are not trying to gouge for price but rather have a lot of money, time, and love invested. If the stud fee is $5000 such as for 2XNAFC 2XCNAFC FC Ebonstar Lean Mac and he has been the best producer of Labradors for the past 6 years in a row then you are going to have to understand that there is more cost but also a better chance of having one of the best labs out there. I own a dog out of Max X a Webshire's Honest Abe bitch and believe me I paid for the nose for her, was she worth it, in a word YES. If you are wanting a hunting dog, a hunt test dog, a simple family pet then by all means risk buying the $600 dog whose parents don't have all the health clearances or ancestors don't / or the titles, and enjoy what you have. If you are wanting a dog that will be able to compete in Field Trials and possibly a National or two then I would be willing to put up the money for a more expensive dog that is hopefully smarter, easier to train, and comes from a healthy, sound ancestry. I realize that some people can only afford $600 for a pup, and you can probably occasionally run across a diamond but you get what you pay for in more cases than not. Most important is what are your plans for the dog, there are a lot of people out there that never dream of running in a competition and they should just do the research and buy the best that you can afford or are willing to spend. Just look for a quality breeder that is as concerned with where the pups are going as she or he is in the money, check out health guarantees, socialization, etc.

 

Let's discuss cost of breeding: You have sperm shipping $400 both direction for the canister, Progesterone tests $250, Artificial Insemination at reproductive specialist 4 hours away $800, Ultra sound $200, X-ray to see how many pups are there $100. Scheduled C-section to ensure best chance of pup and bitch survival $900 - maybe optional if no problems arrive. Risking the life of you female - priceless. Rick of failed pregnancy uncalculable. Dewclaw removal and deworming $200, first set of shots including bordetella (at least 1st set of shots), microchips, HeartGuard Plus and Frontline Plus $1000. Puppy whelping box $250, pads and cleaning supplies $400, cleaning time - endless, quality food over at least 4 week period and puppy food for mom before delivery and during whelping $400, and don't forget litter registration fees, and stud fee which varies by rariety of sperm availablity and stud performance as a sire and on the field. Socialization and proper care are priceless. And the list of duties you have to perform is tremendous especially if they are raised in whelping boxes in your home, or have to hire help out. Price then has to be based on expenses, stud fee, availablility of pups by that particular stud or dam & # of live pups you have to sell. Some people think that we should not make a penny, well if you invest everything that you make back into titling your dogs and maintaining their health then you can pretty well guarantee that no one is getting rich at it at most they are getting even.

 

I should have also said that the price/pedigree of a pup can be driven by your long-term goals.

If you plan to train the dog for field trial and your goal is to have an all-age dog that is competitive at the national level and you want a dog that will hopefully go to the nat'l and/or nat'l am for a few years, then you will probably be willing to spend more for a "fancy" pedigree out of/by dogs that have achieved fc afc titles.

 

Maybe I'm just a cheap SOB, but I couldn't imagine paying $2,500-$5000 for a pup. I bought a GRHRCH UH Dakotas Cajun Roux MH female for $1000 and I was hard pressed to do that. But, I suppose if you got it then it's worth it.


Cory

 

I paid $1700 Canadian for Maxx two years ago -- he's out of CFC CAFC X CFC -- thought it was reasonable as I got to see litter -- and Canadian $ was worth lot less than US $ in those days -- so buying Canadian seemed a better choice -- but any way, you get what you pay for (and wish for) -- Maxx is a high flier hard driving BLM and I'm glad I decided to keep him after foolishly thinking of selling him for a mere $3500 US -- he's everything I ever wanted in a dog and now that I'm the trainer and handler as well as owner he's a lot happier and we're looking forward to great things next year as we both advance into Qualifying and eventually All Age -- and I'd gladly pay that much or more when the time comes for another puppy (even in US dollars if need be)