[Ted Shih]

Open Water Blind

Water on left.
Wind blowing from left to right.
100 yard approach to water
Land on dog's shoulder the whole way.
Ideally enter water at angle of 15 degrees
Swim 150 yards to point, land close to dog the whole way
Long narrow point
If you are really good, you can get two whistles on the point
If dog takes a cast off point from 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock, you can see it in the water. Otherwise, dog is out of sight and beaches on land out of control
Then 50 yard swim to the bird

Assume:
Dogs doing poorly getting off point
Dogs doing well IF they get off point clean
You fight the dog early on to NOT enter water
When you finally cast into the water, dog overcasts
You correct, dog is now running straight and true

Think of ruler. Water side of point is "0" Land side is "6"
Dog is swimming on a line which will land him at "3"
You are 30 yards from point

Do you let the dog roll or handle
What cast are you going to give?
Explain reasoning

 

[Dave Plesko]

There are a couple of dog specific details that would factor into my decision. I'll assume the the precise line to the blind is at the 3" mark thus the dog is on line at the moment.

My preference is to beach the dog as close to the point as I can without "avoiding the hazard" so it kind of depends on how long the point is. I'd stop and cast so I beach at 1".

The cast given is somewhat dog dependant. Which way do they turn in the water? If they turn to my left, all I might have to do is stop them and let them float a bit and give a left back. If they turn to my right it is likely that a silent angle back with a big step might get it. If they dont work with you so well a silent over might get it as they go over then back.

 

[Granddaddy]

Open Water Blind

Water on left.
Wind blowing from left to right.
100 yard approach to water
Land on dog's shoulder the whole way.
Ideally enter water at angle of 15 degrees
Swim 150 yards to point, land close to dog the whole way
Long narrow point
If you are really good, you can get two whistles on the point
If dog takes a cast off point from 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock, you can see it in the water. Otherwise, dog is out of sight and beaches on land out of control
Then 50 yard swim to the bird

Assume:
Dogs doing poorly getting off point
Dogs doing well IF they get off point clean
You fight the dog early on to NOT enter water
When you finally cast into the water, dog overcasts
You correct, dog is now running straight and true

Think of ruler. Water side of point is "0" Land side is "6"
Dog is swimming on a line which will land him at "3"
You are 30 yards from point

Do you let the dog roll or handle
What cast are you going to give?
Explain reasoning

It depends on a lot of things, like how hard the wind is blowing, how cold the water, is the dog a right turner or a left turner, is the dog stylish & fast, is the dog given to water or land as a primary desire - to name several considerations (when it comes to the decision, handle or roll). But given that the downside of letting the dog roll & getting lost behind the point, it would be critical to get the dog off the point in sight. So the benefits of letting a dog roll are too risky. I'd handle the dog but not at 30 yds from the pt provided the dog continues it's path to a 3 on your ruler. I prefer a dog's momentum to be in the preferred direction off a point, meaning I want the dog to already be moving in a left of center direction before I stop the dog, in this example. Relative to the point & wanting the dog in sight off the point, I would stop the dog just before the dog reaches the point, give the dog a silent, straight up left back, stop the dog again on the point and give the dog an over off the point, being prepared to give the dog another cast left if the dog didn't respond as desired.

 

[John Robinson]

It depends on which of my two dogs is running and what frame of mind he is in on that day. I have had days when either of my two dogs would roll off the point on their own, but in the situation you describe I wouldn't take the chance. The dog could roll off the point on his own, as honest as could be, but takes a 12:30 line. He's out of sight to you, but thinks he's being super honest, so regardless of his good attitude, we're out. Better to stop your dog on the point and cast, unless you're 100% certain the dog is going to jump off on his own Fat.

John

 

[paul young]

if the dog turned left, i'd give an angle back left at 20 feet from the point.

if the dog turned right, i'd give a left over at 10 feet from the point.-Paul

 

[Ted Shih]

Wind blowing hard to dirt. First 5 dogs picked up. 2 dogs have done the blind - one poorly. Perfect line is over 2 on ruler. 2 dogs that succeeded went over point at 1 or less. Dog turns to right. No style issues. Dog has already told you about his water attitude TODAY - which is all that really matters

 

[John Robinson]

Wind blowing hard to dirt. First 5 dogs picked up. 2 dogs have done the blind - one poorly. Perfect line is over 2 on ruler. 2 dogs that succeeded went over point at 1 or less. Dog turns to right. No style issues. Dog has already told you about his water attitude TODAY - which is all that really matters

I don't know about your dogs, but my dogs sometimes have a completely different water attitude at the end of the blind than they do up front. We just need to know our own dog I guess.

John

 

[captainjack]

Wind blowing hard to dirt. First 5 dogs picked up. 2 dogs have done the blind - one poorly. Perfect line is over 2 on ruler. 2 dogs that succeeded went over point at 1 or less. Dog turns to right. No style issues. Dog has already told you about his water attitude TODAY - which is all that really matters

If the 1st 5 dogs picked up, I shouldn't think that my dog is so much better than the 1st five that I won't see the same result. So, I try to get some part of the point, 1 or less, and give an over cast off the point.

For anyone that posted, would your answer differ depending on where you thought your dog stood relative to the field?

 

[Kory Poulsen]

Keeping in mind what has happened to dogs running prior to me is very valuable and im not going to assume my dogs performance will be any different to those dogs ahead of me if they have really challenged the line to the blind. If we are on a line that will land him at "3" I am going to roll with it. Especially if the perfect line is "2" and he has already told me he doesnt like the water today. Now that he is running true I would like to think he is becoming a believer on the line he is on and im not going to mess with it.

Also, what we have done in the previous series is going to way in as well. If we have had strong marks, I am not going to over challenge the blind or put myself in a position where we might pick up. So Im going to roll with the line, then a quick whistle as soon as he hits the point!

 

[Granddaddy]

If the 1st 5 dogs picked up, I shouldn't think that my dog is so much better than the 1st five that I won't see the same result. So, I try to get some part of the point, 1 or less, and give an over cast off the point.

For anyone that posted, would your answer differ depending on where you thought your dog stood relative to the field?[/quote]

Not really. If the 1st 5 p/u but there is already a job, just make sure you get off the point in good shape. Survive the blind, win on the marks.......

Even with the additional info, I run the blind the same way I described earlier.

 

[Ted Shih]

Assume that wait until the dog is 30 yards from point. Stop. Give dog a straight up left back. Dog takes left over is now outside the point, 20 yards from shore.

What do you do now?

 

[Granddaddy]

Assuming the dog understood the cast to take him just past/off the point, I'd let the dog go (no need to waste whistles) until just off the point, stop dog & put the dog on the point with a silent right angle back, stop the dog again, and give a walking over off the point being prepared to stop & cast again if necessary to keep the dog in sight off the point.

 

[Dave Plesko]

Give dog a straight up left back. Dog takes left over is now outside the point, 20 yards from shore.

After I picked my jaw up off the ground and asked whose dog this was cuz it sure ain't mine, I'd proceed similar to Grandaddy's suggestion assuming that last 20 yards to the point were going to take him close to it. If he was heading out to sea I'd have to correct and cast for land with a fast whistle when he got there.

 

[paul young]

this scenario as described is somewhat of a moving target....

ok, the dog is 30 yards from the point and going to land right in the middle if it holds it's cast;
i let the dog roll and cast as described in my earlier response. rationale is that i want to preserve as much momentum as possible. i do NOT want to have to cast the dog away from the tip of the point (towards land) , creating new momentum towards big trouble.

if the dog takes the cast, it will be on line when it beaches. whistle when the dog has it's 2 front feet on the point. by the time the dog hears the whistle and responds, it will be fully up on the point, 3 count, and cast left over. be ready to repeat. keep the dog in sight and reasonably on line from that point to the bird.

survive, so as to get called back and try to do a good job on the marks.-Paul

 

[paul young]

Assume that wait until the dog is 30 yards from point. Stop. Give dog a straight up left back. Dog takes left over is now outside the point, 20 yards from shore.

What do you do now?

i believe you will be lucky to salvage the blind from this position. i forsee a hacky job as you try to get the dog onto the point and then cast off with an over. (the only cast that makes sense here)

the dog is going to get very tense and probably confused as to what you are asking it to do.-Paul

 

[blind ambition]

Open Water Blind
Assume:
Dogs doing poorly getting off point
Dogs doing well IF they get off point clean
You fight the dog early on to NOT enter water
When you finally cast into the water, dog overcasts
You correct, dog is now running straight and true

Think of ruler. Water side of point is "0" Land side is "6"
Dog is swimming on a line which will land him at "3"
You are 30 yards from point

Do you let the dog roll or handle
What cast are you going to give?
Explain reasoning

We are lucky today; we have a dog who is crazy in love with water and is shouldering into the wind having lost only an inch on the ruler after being at sea for 120 yds.

I have already moved to my right, away from the mat (following the dog) so that if I'm going to handle, my literal cast is a straight LH back.
Because of the other dogs' difficulties in getting off the point, I will stop him and cast just as he beaches and it will be a silent, slowly projected, LH Back and I will stop him again atop the point and wait him out having watched his head and his eyes to try and read which direction he is favouring as his exit from the point.

Given the two highlighted points from your scenario, the second cast off the point will be just like the first unless he seems that he might be drawn down the point, in which case I will give LH back with a step to my left.

 

[Ted Shih]

After I picked my jaw up off the ground and asked whose dog this was cuz it sure ain't mine, I'd proceed similar to Grandaddy's suggestion assuming that last 20 yards to the point were going to take him close to it. If he was heading out to sea I'd have to correct and cast for land with a fast whistle when he got there.

This dog has told you from the very beginning that TODAY he is seeking water

 

[Tim Carrion]

Assume that wait until the dog is 30 yards from point. Stop. Give dog a straight up left back. Dog takes left over is now outside the point, 20 yards from shore.

What do you do now?

Stop. Handle slowly to break his momentum out to sea. Allow the dog to trend water facing me especially if he makes his turn to the left. Start my body movement to the right. The eventual cast will depend on how he follows my movement and the dog's normal casting tendencies.

Tim

 

[Granddaddy]

In my experience dogs don't communicate I'm watery today & thereafter seek water at every decision point. They might think I see water I have to get in it, based upon their training. They might continue that attitude when faced with the point, meaning they decide to swim past the point but once I cast the dog to the point (understood by the dog as permission to get on the point), they might well decide to stay dry, if cold & if the wind is strong, etc. So I think it important to abandon any literal casting in favor of getting the dog both on & off the point in sight. IMO, getting the factors is much more important than looking smooth, no chance I let the dog roll - with the decision being the statement that if the dog goes behind the point the dog can't be seen & would be lost.

 

[john fallon]

! inch = how many feet?

I would treat this as two seperate blinds, and be on line at the point of the water entry. Assuming that an inch is about one foot, I would work hard to land on the water side of 3 ft.
Like Paul I would stop the dog immediatly and cast the dog , unlike Paul the cast would be an angle back with a step, then an immediate second sit whistle
The next cast would be one of three ,if we were heading in the correct direction a BIG no hands back,if we are digging in towards land a big walking over, If we only need a little correction another angle back also with a step.

I would not worry about whistles , chalange the line, and let the chips fall where they may.

john