[captainjack]

You are awfully new to the sport to be such a cynic.

I think that if you stay the course, you can make a test plenty hard and still follow the four fundamental tenets of a sound test

1) Keep the dogs safe;
2) Make sure that the dogs can see the guns and the birds;
3) Make sure that the dog can see and hear the handlers (and vice versa); and
4) Keep the trains on time

And you will find with a good, hard test, plenty of dogs will eliminate themselves from the competition without your needing to resort to contrivances.

Ted

Thanks again Ted. These are the type things I want to learn about and try to incorporate when I start judging.

John, I won't know for sure. I see a lot of dogs run in training every week, but I don't for a second think that can walk out there and set up a perfect test. Even experienced judges don't always get what they think they will. But, I do want to have a goal in mind when I show up. Tips like these from Ted can only help.

 

[captainjack]

That sounds more like gimmick tests to trick a dog rather than tests that actually test marking or control on blinds.

This is what I mean by elimination tests. I haven't run very many derbies (maybe 8 or 9), but these set ups were encountered more often than not.

And the surprising thing to me was to hear very experienced handlers complaining or at least saying that the judges got no answers from a series when it didn't eliminate 1/3 of the field. Even though there was obvious separation in how well the dogs had performed.

 

[captainjack]

Glen
There is room for many different approaches to how difficult a test should be. I would err on too hard as opposed to too easy

You might choose an opposite approach and there are many judges that share that approach.

When you judge, you have an opportunity to express your philosophy.

Thanks for all of the replies.

I am certainly not advocating easy or watered down tests as I don't believe they would give you the separation I am talking about.

I haven't judged yet, but will judge some minor stakes sometime soon. When I do I will obviously respect the experience of my co-judge. But I will advocate for a test with the goal of being difficult enough to get separation and try not set up a test with barely visable guns, dogs out of site, memory birds super tight behind the flyer where the gunner is not visable for several seconds, etc. just so I can get the field cut down without having to judge a dog out.

 

[captainjack]

I agree with Bill that easier tests reward the less talented dogs. I dislike a trial that is decided by a couple of squiggles on the judges' sheets, whether it be Derby or Open.

It is a real rush when your dog does well in a series that few others have done. It is not as big a thrill when your dog hammers a series that all the dogs do well.

The goal of FT judge, particularly at the all age stakes, is to find the best four dogs that day, not to keep lots of dogs playing.

Agreed. But there is no rule that says you need to call back all dogs that managed to stumble upon the birds. You are only going to call back the best dogs down to the number you determine you can/should carry based on chance to win & time management.

I get just as big a thrill from doing a test well that many dogs struggle to do as I do from doing a test that a lot of dogs fail to complete.

 

[captainjack]

Would you rather know your dog failed and you pick the dog up, or would you rather be dropped and be left to wonder why?

I would rather go down in flames any day than get penciled out. And if you do a hard test, then you know you are running with the big dogs.

Who wants to sit and watch a test all the dogs can do?

I may be the only one. And I'll ask you a question in return, who wants to see 1/2 the dogs entered, particularly a derby or even qual dogs, switch or go back to an old fall because the judge set up a very tight test to avoid having to "judge" the 1st series?

I think this is what makes a judge a judge. The ability set up a test that provides separation, and then to look at the performance of the dogs and judge them.

Scenario:
Dog A has a small hunt on the flyer, a bigger hunt on the 2nd bird, and a started his hunt out of the area of the fall but stumbled on the third bird.
Dog B pins the 1st two birds and starts a hunt within a few feet of the 3rd bird and quickly picks it up.

Dog B's performance is one of the best of that series and is back for certain. Dog A's performance must be looked at relative to the rest of the dogs in the field. Maybe dog A gets back and maybe he doesn't. If I have dog A, I have no problem in not being called back if the dogs that were called back turned in a better performance. And I don't call it getting "penciled out", I call it getting beat.