Well, I haven't seen it a lot, but I have seen dogs that will not pick up a cripple... even one that is dead but just going though post-death muscle twitchin'.

So, if we're really testing our retrievers to maintain the "hunting" stock, then they need to pick up fresh killed, sometimes quivering, sometimes crippled birds.

Plus... a shot flier adds realism to a test in a way that can't be duplicated.

 

It doesnt matter what the venue, there is nothing more exiting to a dog than a shot flyer. Personally I would rather see a pheasant flyer than the use of a duck, because of the flight pattern..

 

Mr.Tome hit the nail on the head!!


One of the primary reasons to hunt with a retriever is to have a means of reliably retrieving wounded or crippled game.

Theys a conservation tool.

We test all these traits,,set up tests that test our TRAINING, but we overlook some of the Basic reasons we have these dogs!!

Gooser

 

If this trait is so essential:

Should instructing gunners to shoot cripples on the ground/water therefore be band in HTs? At some or all levels.

Tim

 

Some dogs are good as gold with all dead birds but throw in a flyer and it creates the excitement that dogs should be tested on, and they may end going back to the flyer so it tests trainability, perseverance, and marking plus picking up a cripple, things that hunting dogs should do.

 

I'm all for flyers, but the Canadians seem to do a pretty good job without the use of flyers.

 

I did not realize that they did not use live flyers in Canada. How does that affect them, or does it, when they run here? Just curious.

 

I think that they are most useful, and most "informative" at the lower levels.....

haven't seen an expereiced dog that won't pick them up.

When using one as a single if the flyer doesn't land right where it is supposed to it is not as big of deal (USUALLY) so it lowers the chance of a No Bird due to a poor flyer.

BEFORE I WAS A JUDGE, I always wnated one, "just cause" since I started looking at it more from how to set a test up and mechanics point of view most of the time they cause more trouble then they are worth in the upper levels IMO. (Last summer saw a dog go on a "gorilla Hunt" handler luckily trusted his dog and did not handle, cause she was chasing a flyer that was the memory bird of a triple and had covered some ground.... GOOD DOG! but an unfair MARKING test)

As far as making sure the Senior(master level) dogs will pick up a fresh shot bird, MOST NAHRA senior test do have a live flyer shot for the Steady to flush (some get missed, and some are intended flyaways, but most get shot)

 

I guess I would rather see a club put on a test instead of, say, not put on a test because they didn't have enough legal gunners to shoot flyers in all levels. That said, though, yes to flyers! In addition to what's been said above, a shot flyer adds more "hunting" flavor than all the camo, hidden gunners, pointed and fired shotguns, etc. combined. Makes it exciting for the dog and the handlers, especially the people just starting out who may not get a shot bird for their dogs outside of hunting season.

Part of what we want out of hunt tests is for these people to come to love the sport, and get more involved.

Amy Dahl

 

not put on a test because they didn't have enough legal gunners to shoot flyers in all levels.

Miss Dahl!

Help Gooser out! What is a Legal gunner?

Gooser

 

If you want to get technical, I guess it would be someone who's not a convicted felon?

What I meant, though, was a gunner who is qualified according to the rules of the organization.

Amy Dahl

 

My HRCH ran a bunch a tests and never saw a flyer.

She does hunt,, and doesnt have issues with cripples.

But,, When I started running tests with her that DID incorperate shot flyers,, I was REALLY surprised at how it effected her level of excitement, and Memory!!

She absoluty knows now what station the flyer station is,, and She Really has to much interest in it!!

It effects her marking, memory,, and if the Judge incorporates the blind to run past that station,, it effects the blind work also!

I really like a Flyer at tests!! I really dont like the Lame excuses we come up with of why a club doest use them!! Its a dis-service to the dogs IMHO

Gooser

 

Personally I see very few con’s to a flyer in a test. There are some valuable aspects to a flyer that judges can utilize to test a retrievers skills, especially at the Master level.

Memory – a well placed flyer can create excitement unlike any other bird in a test. A long difficult go bird flyer with good factors can make a triple quite a challenge. The excitement of the flyer coupled with the length of time to retrieve can really test memory.

Out of order – Clearly one aspect of the out of order flyer is to see if the dog will even watch the other birds. It also is a test of steadiness, and possibly can demonstrate a dogs training by tempting switching.

Cripples – as noted retrieving cripples is a basic aspect of any retrievers work.

Influence – Where, when and how a flyer is placed in a test can influence the entire concept of the test. Take a basic triangle triple, middle point as the short bird. Putting the flyer on the far outside corner and shot away from the other two marks creates a whole different effect on the test than putting it at the short middle point. Depending on the grounds this can create great challenges for the dogs.

Control – Flyers in a test also create control issues with the dogs. No birds and flyers that carry well outside the average landing areas create problems that dead bird stations typically do not.

Handlers – Flyers make a handler do more work. It’s the only bird that a handler has to watch, thus taking some focus off of reading the dog. As well, a hander must always be prepared for a no bird, must plan for how to handle the dog off the line, and determine how to maintain control of the dog as you go back and then come back to the line.

In short, flyers add a level of testing that you just cannot achieve with a dead bird throw. Just ask any Canadian that comes to the states to run a test or trial. They will tell you that…..

/Paul

 

Personally I see very few con’s to a flyer in a test. There are some valuable aspects to a flyer that judges can utilize to test a retrievers skills, especially at the Master level.

Memory – a well placed flyer can create excitement unlike any other bird in a test. A long difficult go bird flyer with good factors can make a triple quite a challenge. The excitement of the flyer coupled with the length of time to retrieve can really test memory.

Out of order – Clearly one aspect of the out of order flyer is to see if the dog will even watch the other birds. It also is a test of steadiness, and possibly can demonstrate a dogs training by tempting switching.

Cripples – as noted retrieving cripples is a basic aspect of any retrievers work.

Influence – Where, when and how a flyer is placed in a test can influence the entire concept of the test. Take a basic triangle triple, middle point as the short bird. Putting the flyer on the far outside corner and shot away from the other two marks creates a whole different effect on the test than putting it at the short middle point. Depending on the grounds this can create great challenges for the dogs.

Control – Flyers in a test also create control issues with the dogs. No birds and flyers that carry well outside the average landing areas create problems that dead bird stations typically do not.

Handlers – Flyers make a handler do more work. It’s the only bird that a handler has to watch, thus taking some focus off of reading the dog. As well, a hander must always be prepared for a no bird, must plan for how to handle the dog off the line, and determine how to maintain control of the dog as you go back and then come back to the line.

In short, flyers add a level of testing that you just cannot achieve with a dead bird throw. Just ask any Canadian that comes to the states to run a test or trial. They will tell you that…..

/Paul

Good examples, Paul. Have you had occasion to watch a marking test (trial or HT) in which you wish the judges had used a flyer differently, or felt the flyer (as used) had little influence on testing the field of dogs? Better placement, order, or any of the ideas above? I ask because I recall feeling that way on a number of occasions, often when common sentiment in the gallery was that a given flyer could just have well been a control bird.

Like pretty much everyone else here, I'm a big proponent of flyer use. I'd like to see them used more wisely as pertains to actually influencing the test sometimes. Your examples are excellent.

Evan

 

The dudette in red only wears that much attire when the thermopoloalous read as in the background!! He would never dress that heavily during a summer outing!!

I quickly scanned the Akc rule book,, and couldnt find what constituted an approved gunner? What are the requirements??

This quote is all Gooser could find!!

Section 8. Gunning. ​

​

​

​

​

Shooting, whether live or blank
ammunition is used, shall be done only by official Guns
approved and designated by the Hunting Test​

Committee.

Help?


Gooser

 

I quickly scanned the Akc rule book,, and couldnt find what constituted an approved gunner? What are the requirements??

This quote is all Gooser could find!!

Section 8. Gunning.

Shooting, whether live or blank

ammunition is used, shall be done only by official Guns
approved and designated by the Hunting Test​

Committee.

Help?


Gooser​

The Judges have complete jurisdiction over the gunners,
and must be particularly aware of gun safety. They
can have the gunners replaced if performance is not satisfactory
or safe. This right, however, shall not be
abused for minor matters since it presents a hardship
for the club. On the other hand, the club shall have
more than an adequate number of gunners to ensure
the smooth flow of the test.
Only breaking-type shotguns, from 20 gauge to 12
gauge, should be used. While it is not a specific responsibility of the Judges, all non-adult gunners (those who use popper loads) shall have successfully completed a Hunter/Gun Safety course, and be a minimum of 16 years​

of age. All live gunning must be by adults, aged 21 or older.
​

 

OK, you made me look. In the guidelines, section 11 it says live gunning must be by adults, age 21 or older.

"Legal" was the wrong choice of word, OK? I admit it. Stop hitting me over the head. I should have said "qualified" or some such. The host club needs people who can hit most of the birds without blowing them up, and who will be there when needed. And who meet state hunter licensing requirements.

Amy Dahl

 

...for the love of God...must every thread be deteriorated with a photo of Gooser!?

 

With regard to testing, I think whether or not a flyer is important varies from test to test, largely according to how savvy the judges are. In my experience, at least 50% of flyers had little to no constructive effect on most of the field, merely because the judges didn't understand how to use them.

I love 'em! I train with them regularly. On the rare occasion when I judge, I include them in at least my first series.

Evan

 

Every bird in every test and every venue (AKC, NAHRA, UKC) should be a shot flier and every test should require one be crippled at 15 yds....

When we hunt we routinely have a dog sit still with ducks in the decoys 15 yds away...

Hunting skills being the true basis for all these games (ACK field trials included), shouldn't this be the single, most basic test we put on?

I know a lot of people who are dedicated to retriever games will disagree, but my dog hunts with us and that is what he is most challenged by IMHO. I can handle him to any downed bird as long as he can see me, but... we might not get the shot on the whole flock if he breaks when the first three ducks hit the water...

You just can't duplicate it, regards,

 

Every bird in every test and every venue (AKC, NAHRA, UKC) should be a shot flier and every test should require one be crippled at 15 yds....

You just can't duplicate it, regards,

As much as I like flyers and cripples, purposely wounding birds is not humane either. I judged a test where 22 out of the 30 birds were cripples not sure how it was happening but it did. The good side was we saw alot of birds that loved them a few that didn't and a few that lost the bird due to it running away before they got to it.

I like cripples but not at the expense of wounding game over and over to see how the dogs do. Just my .02.
I will still use flyers at tests and training but never try to wound on purpose there are other ways to train for cripples.

 

TMac

Could you tell me where you found that post of yours in the rule book??

What section is it in??

Are AKC Field Trail rules different from HT rules, as it pertains to Gunners??

Thanks!

Gooser

 

Gooser,

Its found on page 36 of the hunt test regs.

The ft rules are found on pg 27 but are a bit different

Official gunners should never be less than 16 years of
age, and all gunners should have satisfactorily completed
a firearms safety course. It is recommended that all gunning
be accomplished with breaking type shotguns and
that the guns be broken when not in use.
Host clubs must be aware of government regulations​

on the type of shot allowed at the trial location.

Which just goes to prove that gunners are more/less important at ht than ft?

T. Mac

 

Gun_dog_2002 gave a comprehensive answer about why the fliers are necessary to test the dogs.

I don't think you can KNOW you're dog is steady until he/she has to honor a working dog when the flier is shot some 20-30 yards in front of both of them especially if the working dog has to cross in front of yours to get it. In her heart-of-hearts, I know my girl will always believe she can get to that duck first. We haven't run any senior tests yet, and we're working every day on sit-stay-or-die! I'll believe she has it down when she can stay by my side and let another dog pick up the flier.

I also know my dog is going to have a harder time in ANY test where there is a shot flier, since her little brain will go control-alt-delete with all the excitement a shot flier generates. Getting her settled back on the memory bird will be much harder after she's just had that warm and twitching duck taken out of her mouth.

I figure Canadians hunt over their dogs and can make up for the deficiencies of their tests/trials in that manner. Because otherwise, I think they'd be at a severe disadvantage walking onto our grounds and introducing their dogs to shot fliers in the moment.

 

Dogs are just not tested completely without flyers. That said, there have been occasions when I wished we weren't faced with a flyer used effectively to erode memory, test steadiness, etc.

The only thing I'd add to Paul's list is scent discernment. Flyers in relatively high cover can be very difficult to find after a number of flyers have been shot even though the dogs have had a clear view of the fall. Handlers who do not train in relatively large groups or where there have been relatively few flyers shot will likely have dogs with big hunts at tests or trials. Large or long hunts can lead to memory loss, leaving the fall area, switching, popping, etc. Refined scent discernment is a learned trait that a dog can only acquire hunting falls where there has been multiple live birds shot.

Let's not go the way of political correctness and eliminate flyers from our games.

 

To pile on to David's comments about the notion of training in large groups with shot flyers landing in cover, dogs can get really hot if they don't efficiently find that flyer and get out of there.

When they come back, finally, with that flyer and their tongues are as wide as their shoulders, you're going to have a challenge on those memory marks.

Chris

 

Amy said : "The host club needs people who can hit most of the birds without blowing them up"

This was one of the reasons that I started this thread.

How about the bird that is blown to bits and it's innards are hanging out of a blown apart breast ?

The birds are supposed to be delivered "fit for the table" (not munched and crunched) ----- but how about the bird that isn't fit for the table even before the dog picks it up ?

I've saw two dogs just last year (thankfully neither were mine) that were turned into munchers/crunchers as well as becoming very sticky -- purely due to blown apart birds............. These dogs were both properly FF by extremely experienced trainers. One dog was running NAHRA Interediate and the other dog was running AKC Senior. They are both fine now, but it set training back a very long way in order to fix the problem that a "no-bird" would have prevented.

It was easy for the Judges to see that the bird had been turned into burger.



.

 

...I've saw two dogs just last year (thankfully neither were mine) that were turned into munchers/crunchers as well as becoming very sticky -- purely due to blown apart birds..............

Doc, this could happen hunting, or any time a bird is shot. It's happened to all my dogs either at trials, in training or hunting but none are mouthy because of an occasional retrieve where the bird is in bad shape.

That possibility is no reason to not shoot flyers. That potential is a good reason to use 7 1/2s and make sure the bird is thrown/launched consistently and shot at a reasonable distance.

 

TMac!!

Thank you !

Gooser

 

I have never seen a flyer in a JH test (I have heard it happens but not in my neck of the world) but I think it would be a good thing. The pass rate would probably go down a little. I have seen people show up with a 7 or 8 month old dog and say "my dog has never retrieved a real duck before!" What would said dog do with a flapping pissed off mallard? Probably run away look back at it and come on in without it is my guess. A short out of order flyer is where the fun is for a amped up dog!

 

Labman63

Come run Atlanta...you will sure see one in Junior there I think they should be used at every level...saw quite a few not want to pick up a cripple

 

The issue in trials and tests is to strive to provide the same test to each dog. Cripples, by the very nature of inconsistency would not generally provide consistent tests from dog to dog and usually result in a "no bird" by the judge - but not always.

To the question of cripples, in training, it is simple to shackle live birds as an excellent simulation of a crippled bird which does not require actually crippling the bird.

 

DOC,

What a way To Stir the Animal Right's Pot.



You are asking about a HUNTING TEST.


Canadian's have struggled with flyers (here) for a while.

Just another reason to consider legal issues here in the us

TAKE 'EM B




TAKE 'EM B

 

DOC,

What a way To Stir the Animal Right's Pot.

TAKE 'EM B

Oh, that's right -- How could I have forgotten that the AR people don't know that we kill things.



.

 

Gunning test or trial doesn't mean the wheel has to reinvented. The Spaniel community has been shooting flyers over their dogs in trial since 1927. Trials use pheasant for the All-Age dogs and pigeons on steady puppies.(pup to the age of 2yrs).

The Hunt test community will use pheasants and chukars for most part,with pigeons very rarely.

Go to a Spaniel event either trial or test, visit with the Gun Captain and his team as time allows. After some 35 yrs in the spaniel game flyers are just not that scary...pricey but not scary.

Cheers from cold and snowie Michigan

Hal

 

if you think a flyer does not matter to a trained dog, just watch witch bird he picks out first when he comes to line.
GG