Oh boy.

There are more knowledgeable people on this site than myself but, you could point out to your buddy that the darker shade of yellow labs were documented way back in the day vs. the color that he has.

 

Only three colors of labs are recognized by AKC and UKC - black, yellow and chocolate. Yellow ranges anywhere from very light to fox red, according to the written breed standard. There is no mention of any other color and colors other than these are disqualifications. “Silver” labs were most likely created from crossing weims with labs at a kennel in the UK back in the mid-20th century. They are definitely not in the same category as fox red which is a perfectly acceptable color.

 

The crossbreeding occurred in the USA with the first documented “silver” born in 1985. There were no dilutes born anywhere else in the world until 2006 in Britain and Australia from dilutes which had been imported from the USA. Neither country, nor any other country in the world recognizes any dilute color in the breed standard.

 

NO ---

the dilute gene has no comparison to yellow. The dilute gene was introduced into the labrador genetics by way of a cross of Weimeraner/Labrador. This means that any labrador carrying the dilute gene can be traced back to that breeding. The dilute gene is connected to some health issues - alopecia, for example.

They are NOT purebred dogs and NOT recognized as purebred by the Labrador Retriever Club. The UK recently took steps to begin identifying and eventually removing the dilute gene from the labrador registry... I hope the AKC follows suit.

If someone wants to go and breed dilutes, weimadors, or whatever... fine.... just don't register them as purebred labs and don't call them 'Labs'...

Ask your buddy if the parents of his dog had health testing --- and if the dog came with a guarantee against alopecia and other skin conditions.

 

NO ---

the dilute gene has no comparison to yellow. The dilute gene was introduced into the labrador genetics by way of a cross of Weimeraner/Labrador. This means that any labrador carrying the dilute gene can be traced back to that breeding. The dilute gene is connected to some health issues - alopecia, for example.

They are NOT purebred dogs and NOT recognized as purebred by the Labrador Retriever Club. The UK recently took steps to begin identifying and eventually removing the dilute gene from the labrador registry... I hope the AKC follows suit.

If someone wants to go and breed dilutes, weimadors, or whatever... fine.... just don't register them as purebred labs and don't call them 'Labs'...

Ask your buddy if the parents of his dog had health testing --- and if the dog came with a guarantee against alopecia and other skin conditions.

Tobias, the silver lab he has was given to them for a DU banquet. They were supposed to keep it until the banquet and their son loved the dog so they bought the dog at the banquet for a lot of money (which goes to helping duck hunting). The lab has issues and I know for a fact that it doesn’t come with any health clearances or guarantees.

 

Thank you for the replies, I appreciate it.

 

pretty sure there is a difference between a recessive & the dilute gen >>

 

not much different. The dilute color is expressed when the recessive for the D locus is doubled up... dd (rather than DD)... Dd carries the recessive dilute gene. EE - is black, Ee, carries the recessive gene for chocolate, ee is chocolate.

 

A research article I read a few months back stated the d1 recessive type of the D locus genes is the one most commonly found in silver 'labradors'. I find it interesting the recessive D locus genes which dilute black coats have 3 types and the B locus genes which dilute black to brown have 6 types. I would guess there might be even more discovered in the future. Some brown dogs can have 2 or 3 different types of the b dilute gene. (Some of my liver curly coats have 2 b dilute gene types, some have 3.)

To the OP: your yellow dog has varying shades of yellow because each hair follicle may produce pigment differently. This links back to the I locus (color intensity genes) and the melanin-producing genes, and pigment saturation genes, and probably other genes not yet identified.

Pretty interesting to see the types of recessive d genes and their phenotype on these 3 breeds: from left to right, don't know on the first dog, the second is a Thai Ridgeback with both d1 and d2 dilute genes, and the third is a Hungarian Pumi who has d1 and d3 genes. I don't know if that lighter silver blue on the right dog is common for d1/d3 dogs.

 

A research article I read a few months back stated the d1 recessive type of the D locus genes is the one most commonly found in silver 'labradors'. I find it interesting the recessive D locus genes which dilute black coats have 3 types and the B locus genes which dilute black to brown have 6 types. I would guess there might be even more discovered in the future. Some brown dogs can have 2 or 3 different types of the b dilute gene. (Some of my liver curly coats have 2 b dilute gene types, some have 3.)

To the OP: your yellow dog has varying shades of yellow because each hair follicle may produce pigment differently. This links back to the I locus (color intensity genes) and the melanin-producing genes, and pigment saturation genes, and probably other genes not yet identified.

Pretty interesting to see the types of recessive d genes and their phenotype on these 3 breeds: from left to right, don't know on the first dog, the second is a Thai Ridgeback with both d1 and d2 dilute genes, and the third is a Hungarian Pumi who has d1 and d3 genes. I don't know if that lighter silver blue on the right dog is common for d1/d3 dogs.

View attachment 92020

The dog on the far left is an American bully. They are bred for this color and recognized by the UKC and ABKC

 

I think we need Blue Labradors......
Imagine how much those could be sold for.

 

Wish granted Paul. I just read somewhere about a shade of "Silver" labs being marketed as "Blue".

 

Technicolor Labrador - I am working in the genetic tests right now 😂

 

Hahaha. APBT your dog is not fox red. Case closed.

 

That’s what I said lol. I told him he was yellow and he said no he’s fox red. I didn’t want to argue with him so I just said ok. Lol
The reason I posted is because I wondered if fox red is a dilute gene or not. Lots of people are seeking this color and as much as I am a fan of certain colors, I don’t feel you should pick a dog based on it.
Again, thank you everyone for the replies and keeping this civil. Lots of great information on here.

 

Fox red and yellow is the same color in Labs and goldens. Fox Red is just a different shade of yellow. Cream is just a different shade of yellow.

Think of going to a paint store and asking for white paint. They will ask you what shade of white. Each molecule of pigment added to white paint will change the shade of the paint. There isn't just one shade of white paint. There isn't just one shade of yellow paint. There isn't just one shade of red paint. There isn't just one shade of gray paint.

Genes in the body act the same way on coat color as pigment additions in paint -- they can create a darker color or a lighter color. But think of the dilute gene as something different. You can change the color of paint by adding or subtracting paint pigments to various colors. Or you could dilute the color of oil paint by adding mineral spirits. When you use mineral spirits to dilute the paint color, you are bringing an outside element into the paint mix, just like the dilute d gene is bringing in an outside element not historically present in purebred Labs.

The problem with certain color genes being introduced into breeds that didn't historically have them is health issues. Certain types of Merle-colored dogs bred to another Merle will be lethal. Some combinations of white color genes with other genes in a dog cause deafness. Researchers have found that really dark-colored poodles are at risk to get a form of toe cancer called squamous cell carcinoma because they have a repeat of certain strings of molecules from a color gene.

Color genes can react with other genes to create unhealthy dogs, cows, and all sorts of mammals. This has been known for at least 50 years.

If Labradors were meant to be silver and live long and healthy lives and reproduce, why weren't there thousands of silver Labradors produced in the 1930s and 40s when the breed was exploding in popularity? Why would silver be such a rare color in a breed which has been the most popular breed in the U.S. for almost 40 years and one of the most popular breeds in the world for a century if silver was historically present in the breed since the beginning?

 

Fox red and yellow is the same color in Labs and goldens. Fox Red is just a different shade of yellow. Cream is just a different shade of yellow.

Think of going to a paint store and asking for white paint. They will ask you what shade of white. Each molecule of pigment added to white paint will change the shade of the paint. There isn't just one shade of white paint. There isn't just one shade of yellow paint. There isn't just one shade of red paint. There isn't just one shade of gray paint.

Genes in the body act the same way on coat color as pigment additions in paint -- they can create a darker color or a lighter color. But think of the dilute gene as something different. You can change the color of paint by adding or subtracting paint pigments to various colors. Or you could dilute the color of oil paint by adding mineral spirits. When you use mineral spirits to dilute the paint color, you are bringing an outside element into the paint mix, just like the dilute d gene is bringing in an outside element not historically present in purebred Labs.

The problem with certain color genes being introduced into breeds that didn't historically have them is health issues. Certain types of Merle-colored dogs bred to another Merle will be lethal. Some combinations of white color genes with other genes in a dog cause deafness. Researchers have found that really dark-colored poodles are at risk to get a form of toe cancer called squamous cell carcinoma because they have a repeat of certain strings of molecules from a color gene.

Color genes can react with other genes to create unhealthy dogs, cows, and all sorts of mammals. This has been known for at least 50 years.

If Labradors were meant to be silver and live long and healthy lives and reproduce, why weren't there thousands of silver Labradors produced in the 1930s and 40s when the breed was exploding in popularity? Why would silver be such a rare color in a breed which has been the most popular breed in the U.S. for almost 40 years and one of the most popular breeds in the world for a century if silver was historically present in the breed since the beginning?

J --- you should be a spokesman for the breed (even though you do not own one, haha!) Can't say it any better than this!

 

J.Marti / All
Do you think that dogs that happen to have the darker red. And also have good retrieving skill. Go somehow hand in hand?
I am thinking of the dark red golden retrievers that do very well playing fetch for ribbons. Verses the big fluffy cream golden retrievers that cannot find a sirloin in a supper dish.

 

Ken,
I think in regards to the connection to color and retrieving ability and drive: it is more likely breeders see working dogs they really like and breed to them. Those dogs have the drive and talent the breeders like and the group of genes influencing color might happen to be inherited in a group along with the talent genes.

That's the way the hunting/working/service breeds were developed in the first place. Some people who are devotees of a breed think a bunch of people got together in 1800 and said "Let's make a dog breed!" And then wrote descriptions of what they would like to have in a dog breed and set about trying to breed dogs with all the traits they thought would make an ideal dog for their chosen purpose.

But the exact opposite was true. People saw a dog they really liked and said "That dog is REALLY GREAT at truffle hunting so I need to breed to him and keep the puppies who look like him because they likely will be great truffle hunters too!" So they might have kept all the brown and white puppies who looked just like the sire of their litter because they thought that would guarantee great truffle hunters. And, if the puppies not only inherited the coloring of the sire, but the truffle hunting talent as well, that would become a desired color of the breed. (And probably later included as an acceptable color of the breed.)

However, having said all that, I do remember some research into colors of cows. Can't remember it all but I think there was a peer-reviewed study in which the researchers found a connection to coat color and longevity in cows. Look up milk production, color and longevity. My grandparents were farmers and they had a separate herd of Brown Swiss cows. My grandmother loved Brown Swiss but they didn't produce as much milk as Holsteins. Was it the color? Maybe but it could also be that a sire who had Holstein coloring from 50 years before my grandparents time sired a bunch of females who produced lots more milk than the average cow. Then farmers started breeding to him over and over and over again. That popular cow sire might also have inherited a different coloring that had nothing to do with milk production but the color came along for the ride with the increased milk production.

Color breeding sort of perpetuates itself. (Donning flame suit now...) Some folks in this modern era say black labs are the most talented and people serious about field trials should stick with breeding for black and owning black. Well, that's breeding for color. I understand their reasoning (Shhhh--I actually think liver curly coats are more likely to be better field dogs than blacks). But if 80 percent of the people breeding and buying Labradors for field trials believe only black dogs have the talent, it is likely 80 percent of the energy, training, time, and money to develop a field trial Labrador goes into black Labs, and 80 percent of the Lab entrants into field trials are black.

Same thing with goldens. "That golden I just saw at the field trial was watery, fast, stylish, and a great marker and I want to breed to him." If that dog is a deep, dark red, that trait will likely be noted and repeated in field breedings.

So, in the end, I don't know. It's likely a chicken and egg type of thing. Although there are researchers who believe they have found the pointing gene in certain sporting dogs. Can't remember if they said it translates to color.

Sorry for the long post but I love genetics and once thought I would be a genetic researcher. Until I met Organic Chemistry and Physics for Biologists. Not a good fit LOL.

 

I would say field bred goldens are going to do better than show bred.

 

You are correct of course, but I suspect there are French Bulldogs with more desire to retrieve than a lot of "English Cream Goldens", many of which have a suspicious Pyrenees look about them.
French Bulldogs might also be healthier than "Silver" Labs and "English Cream" Goldens.

 

I believe everyone has explained the differences eloquently; also that dog is standard yellow. But as this is your friend best bet is to just keep your mouth shut and let time teach the lesson. People love their dogs.. That's just a fact, nothing can ever be gained by arguing particularities with someone that loves something. I've known several people who have fallen into the trap of the excellent marketing of "silver labradors", they are good people and get very involved in their dogs. Still while no one wishes them ill, normally they suffer an array of health issues, Color dilution alopecia, allergies, CCL at 18mt, sudden death for no reason. Invariably they end up with issues, and usually their next dogs are much better bred and they become some of the most knowledgable in "warning" people against good marketing. The time to try and educate people is before they own the dog. Your buddy owns and love his dog, only thing that will be gained with pushing this is straining your friendship.

 

In addition to what everyone else has said, dark yellow appears to be the shade that the first yellow labs were. Based on Ben of Hyde's photo, he is a dog from 1899 and the first recorded yellow, the photo is in black and white of course, he does not look like a light yellow, he may have even been fox red.

 

Fox red is the deepest shade of yellow, and likely the original shade of yellow since the late 1800’s.Yellows can range from pale cream to fox red, and a yellow Lab is the only color Lab that may have shading of the color on his body. Dilutes are not purebred Labradors as the genetics necessary to produce dilution were introduced by crossbreeding during the latter part of the 20th century in the USA.
The AKC states;”Color. Include under this heading the color and markings of the coat (and the skin under the coat if skin color description is to be included). In breeds where multiple colors or color combinations are acceptable, but not all colors are permitted, the complete list of all acceptable colors and color combinations must be included in the standard. In such cases, any color or color combination not mentioned are UNACCEPTABLE” - the emphasis is supplied by the AKC.

 

Fox red is the deepest shade of yellow, and likely the original shade of yellow since the late 1800’s.

I'm skeptical. If that is true, why isn't it fox red the most common shade of yellow now?

 

Hard to improve on black Labradors, in my opinion. For trialing or hunting.

 

Others have mentioned that Fox Red is just a darker shade of yellow and not a dilute gene. From my understanding the dilute version of yellow would be a Champaign lab and the dilute version of black would be a charcoal lab. Neither of them are as popular as the silver, but I believe they both have the same health issues as the silver.