[tide pond]

I'm getting a quick but sometime sloppy sit on my sit whistle which leads to problems on my cast. I can square her up with a come back and then sit but would like to clean up the initial response. Seems to get worse the further away she is. Thanks in advance

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Look at the below and after videos of the loopy slow sit that I had with Hank (by Pirate). Read the excellant advise that I had from some really good trainers (Howard, Dennis Voigt, Breck, Gundog, etc). Then look at the results in the second video.
http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...howthread.php?78830-Hank-(by-Pirate)-Sit-to-Pile&highlight=Hank+(by+Pirate)+sit

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...(by-Pirate)-Cleaning-up-loopy-sit&highlight=Hank+(by+Pirate)+cleaning+loopy+sit

Shoot I don't know what happen to the first video. But read the comments. I will look for the video. I think I put some in a separate folder.

Edit: I guess I must have deleted the first video when I was cleaning up my files. Anyway the comments are still very valid.

 

[Renee P.]

I'm getting a quick but sometime sloppy sit on my sit whistle which leads to problems on my cast. I can square her up with a come back and then sit but would like to clean up the initial response. Seems to get worse the further away she is. Thanks in advance

Do you use an e-collar? Does the dog understand that it may get a nick from the collar if fails to sit when you toot on the whistle (or if he fails to sit quickly)? Has the dog been forced-to-pile? Then sit-to-pile? If so, then revisit sit-to-pile and when you toot for the sit, and then get a slow loopy sit, toot-nick. Eventually dog figures out that it needs to sit quickly to beat the the toot-nick. It can take awhile.......but a beautiful thing when it works!

 

[tide pond]

Thanks, Wayne. I'll check out the comments and vids when u find them. Thanks also, Renee. She is Ccd, forced to pile, sit to pile, and does so very quickly. Problem is she somtimes is so eager to get where she thinks she should be going that she doesn't square back to me to see where I say she should be going

 

[Renee P.]

Thanks, Wayne. I'll check out the comments and vids when u find them. Thanks also, Renee. She is Ccd, forced to pile, sit to pile, and does so very quickly. Problem is she somtimes is so eager to get where she thinks she should be going that she doesn't square back to me to see where I say she should be going

Ah! I thought by sloppy you meant slow...

Toot-toot-toot (come-in whistle), then toot-nick (sit-nick) is supposed to fix the crooked sit. I haven't had much luck with that method so I will check out Wayne's thread and follow this one...

 

[Evan]

Do what you're happy with. But as I give seminars all over the country the "toot-toot-toot"/come-in to straighten up" treatment is incredibly common, and incredibly ineffective. As I train with folks who do it I'm never surprised to see it because they do it all the time. They need to do it all the time because it generally only fixes the problem in the moment...this time. Tomorrow the dog will do the same thing. I'm with Mitty. We had a long discussion on crooked sit early this year, or late last year. I wrote out my treatment at that time. It's pretty long for a forum post, but if you care to email me I'll write it up for you. rushcreekpress@aol.com

Evan

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Hmm, I thought u were talking about loopy sits. The term for your issue is crooked sit.
However I have had good luck with the TRT process.

 

[BJGatley]

Thanks, Wayne. I'll check out the comments and vids when u find them. Thanks also, Renee. She is Ccd, forced to pile, sit to pile, and does so very quickly. Problem is she somtimes is so eager to get where she thinks she should be going that she doesn't square back to me to see where I say she should be going

Your dog loves the work...Kudos for that as a trainer. When you whistle sit, let her sit there a while and do nothing. Watch what she is doing and instead of giving her a cast to go out, throw a bumper toward her (short) to you and recall. In route, blow the site whistle. Recall and blow another sit whistle. Watch...Then have her retrieve the bumper. Get her to think about you and not the retrieve (reward).
Sounds like you have a great dog.

 

[tide pond]

Thanks, BJ. Sounds straightforward I'll give it a try. I'll review my trt also, don't remember where it is covered but probably in the force to pile?

 

[Wayne Nutt]

It is in Disc 5-Bonus

 

[DarrinGreene]

Seems to get worse the further away she is. Thanks in advance

The answer to your question is contained in this statement. You don't need to add bunch of pressure to get this corrected. Work on leash with a retrieve as a reward. Do it up close at first then move her away from you. When she sits right, she gets the bumper, otherwise no reward. This doesn't have to be in a pile work setting. You can fake a throw and get her to move away from you then toot the whistle and either reward or not based on the response. Also look CLOSELY at the rest of this dog's life and I'll be you are tolerating a crooked sit in other places, when it's not critical. So.. what does sit mean? sit means feet square under you, mouth closed (no noise), eyes on me! That's the only thing that get rewarded. Helps if you started this from the beginning but since you didn't, you can correct it now. It'll take time but it will work if you clean up your training and be consistent. More pressure may cause all kinds of other issues from lack of eye contact (avoidance) to laying down to who knows what. Do some close distance positive work on it and see if you can't change her overall habit from there.

Once she's doing it right and I mean REALLY, consistently right, give a meaningful correction if she gets lazy. Don't nag nag nag with come in whistles and nicks.

Just my take, for what it's worth (which is exactly what you paid).

 

[Duckquilizer]

It is in Disc 5-Bonus

Can I name it? I've got a couple good names...

T.N.T. Total Nutt Training and Nuttworks

 

[Renee P.]

Do what you're happy with. But as I give seminars all over the country the "toot-toot-toot"/come-in to straighten up" treatment is incredibly common, and incredibly ineffective. As I train with folks who do it I'm never surprised to see it because they do it all the time. They need to do it all the time because it generally only fixes the problem in the moment...this time. Tomorrow the dog will do the same thing. I'm with Mitty. We had a long discussion on crooked sit early this year, or late last year. I wrote out my treatment at that time. It's pretty long for a forum post, but if you care to email me I'll write it up for you. rushcreekpress@aol.com

Evan

I would like to read your write up, email sent.

It is in Disc 5-Bonus

Are you talking about BJGatley's suggestion? This is on the TRT bonus disk?

The answer to your question is contained in this statement. You don't need to add bunch of pressure to get this corrected. Work on leash with a retrieve as a reward. Do it up close at first then move her away from you. When she sits right, she gets the bumper, otherwise no reward. This doesn't have to be in a pile work setting. You can fake a throw and get her to move away from you then toot the whistle and either reward or not based on the response. Also look CLOSELY at the rest of this dog's life and I'll be you are tolerating a crooked sit in other places, when it's not critical. So.. what does sit mean? sit means feet square under you, mouth closed (no noise), eyes on me! That's the only thing that get rewarded. Helps if you started this from the beginning but since you didn't, you can correct it now. It'll take time but it will work if you clean up your training and be consistent. More pressure may cause all kinds of other issues from lack of eye contact (avoidance) to laying down to who knows what. Do some close distance positive work on it and see if you can't change her overall habit from there.

Once she's doing it right and I mean REALLY, consistently right, give a meaningful correction if she gets lazy. Don't nag nag nag with come in whistles and nicks.

Just my take, for what it's worth (which is exactly what you paid).

I'm going to try something like your suggestion.

Your point about getting lax with the sit standard is good, but I am not sure I totally understand it. I do not want my dog to spin around and face me in all contexts, after I give the "sit" command. I also do not always want her making eye contact with me most of the time. When she is at my side she is to be looking and facing out towards the field, for example, looking for birds.

I know that my inconsistent expectations for "sit" in the house contributes to loopy sits on blinds---I say sit to get her out of my way at home for example, but then get distracted and don't notice if she actually sat. So I am interested in using "sit" consistently to get a square sit on blinds...but I don't see that this standard of requiring the dog to always face me and make eye contact when I command sit is really what I want.

 

[DarrinGreene]

I'm going to try something like your suggestion.

Your point about getting lax with the sit standard is good, but I am not sure I totally understand it. I do not want my dog to spin around and face me in all contexts, after I give the "sit" command. I also do not always want her making eye contact with me most of the time. When she is at my side she is to be looking and facing out towards the field, for example, looking for birds.

I know that my inconsistent expectations for "sit" in the house contributes to loopy sits on blinds---I say sit to get her out of my way at home for example, but then get distracted and don't notice if she actually sat. So I am interested in using "sit" consistently to get a square sit on blinds...but I don't see that this standard of requiring the dog to always face me and make eye contact when I command sit is really what I want.

What I suggested won't suddenly mean the dog violates heel to jump in front of you and sit facing you Renee. You do enough heeling and sitting that in that context they have no problem facing forward. I've never seen one even try that, in fact.

There are some other scenarios like a remote sit or focusing on an object where the dog looks elsewhere but I believe it's good practice to teach them to turn around and look at your face when they are away from you in the field (or elsewhere).

As with most things, I learned this from someone much wiser and more experienced than myself

 

[DarrinGreene]

This is the beginning of work with a very sensitive pup who had a very lazy sit when we started. She's got it figured out now. In this vid she was very successful and got paid every time. That wasn't so for every session. This was pre-force fetch or any kind of pile work but I have seen similar things done with more advanced dogs to solve the OP problem.

As I mentioned this is to TEACH the behavior. We'll correct for non-compliance later, but we want to dog to understand what the correct behavior is and have habituated it substantially before pressure is applied.

I was told by a very accomplished FT trainer (think several dozen FC's) that sitting should be an opportunity for the dog to work with you, as opposed to a punishment. In that vein I decided to start with reward based methods to habituate the behavior before I put pressure on it.

May be right or wrong but I don't see how it can hurt.

 

[Skinny]

Something I did was sit my pup 10 yards from me. Face her then I would walk 45 degrees around her blow the sit whistle and nick. She would turn and face me. I would do this all the way around both directions. I think it made her learn to face me every time I blow the sit whistle. So the sit whistle means sit and face me!

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Disc 5 of TRT. Cute Layne.

 

[Duckquilizer]

Disc 5 of TRT. Cute Layne.

Sorry Wayne! Had too pull a little funny.

 

[Evan]

I've replied to several of you who have emailed. I may have neglected to attach the link for the video clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyncYv8LFbQ That should help.

Evan

 

[Renee P.]

Thanks, Darrin. Good visual aid.

I sort of think my dog's crooked sit is partly due to the dog wanting to sit quickly. Toot, toot-nick worked great to get rid of the loopy sit, but now she plunks her butt down before she turns around and looks at me over her shoulder.

Evan, the video link doesn't work---it wants a login.