AFC & he was such a handsome dog!! He also had a CD & TD (Tracking Dog title)

M

 

Don't know the dog, but if it was a dual champion it was a bench (conformation) champion + a field champion (FC). If it had also earned the amateur FC title AFC it would be listed as DC/AFC or Dual CH/AFC etc. A bench champion that is an AFC is not considered a dual champion and listed as CH AFC. Hope that helps!

 

Oops! Julie's right in terms of the Dual CH denoting FC, but he was also an AFC.

M

 

Dual CH AFC Tigathoe's Funky Farquar CD TD OS FDHF (11/11/1971-6/5/1987) was a Dual Champion, which makes him a CH and FC, but he was also an AFC, and had titles in obedience and tracking. He wa owned and trained by Dottie Ramsey Mikeska, who still breeds, trains and handles Goldens today at College Station, TX, along with her daughter and son in law, Shannon and Adam Casto. I Believe Pat Sadler is still around and breeding Goldens.

He was bred by Torch Flinn and Pat Sadler, in the northeast. Torch was probably the most prominent breeder of the 50s and 60s, and continued well after that. Her Tigathoe's prefix appears way back in most field Golden pedigrees, including my Cody and Pilot. Farquar had three littermates who earned their FC and AFC titles.

While I never saw "Quar" work, many people have told me he would complete well in Field Trials today. There hasn't been a US Dual CH since Quar, but Mike and Val Ducross' Firemark's Push Comes to Shove, bred by Melanie Foster earned his Canadian Dual Champion title last year.

 

A little Golden trivia for you this morning. As Steve mentioned Dual Ch AFC Tigathoe’s Funky Farquar, Quar” was a littermate to FC AFC Tigathoe’s Kiowa II, “Ki”. I have not idea how many litters each sired, but one would think that the Dual Ch of the two would have had more girls calling.

However, while Quar certainly sired some nice pups, he had no FC or AFC or CH pups to his credit. Ki on the other hand has to his credit 3 or 4 FC and/or AFC and (going from a questionable memory here) 3 CH pups.

One of those CH pups was a bitch named Ch Sunstream Gypsy of Topbrass, dame of NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton. There is another Golden of note that was line bred on Ki which is arguably one of the most influential of the past dozen year, that being Wraith’s Duncan.

I am one who does not believe that Ki gets the credit he deserves.

Dottie Ramsey Mikeska, who still breeds, trains and handles Goldens today at College Station, TX, along with her daughter and son in law, Shannon and Adam Casto. I Believe Pat Sadler is still around and breeding Goldens.

Steve, check out the breeders on this pup.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=227249

 

ki has some wonderful offspring out there bred by ai's . Their are two litters i believe. Torch Flinn had some great goldens! Melanie foster congrats, i had heard about your accomplishments, we need to chat sometime!! I think that this is soo great. Maria

 

Jim, do you have any insight as to why Kiowa II was never finished as a bench CH? Was he just never shown in the ring?
From all the photos I have seen of them, Kiowa was a MUCH better looking dog. Met the standard better (from what can be observed in a still photo) and would be competitive in the breed ring today.
Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119
JS

 

Jim Pickering wrote:

I am one who does not believe that Ki gets the credit he deserves.

Any thoughts on why? He certainly had it all. My Kate goes back to Ki bred to CH Ad-Lib's Bangor CD *** Great bitch in her own right!

M

 

Perhaps, as may often be the case, there was too much of a bias toward the extra title on the paper

versus

the natural attributes of the individual dog and what they would pass on in their pups???
(note: I'm NOT saying that ANY of these dogs weren't great dogs!!)



bp

 

IMO Kiowa II was the better looking dog and more field Goldens were bred to Kiowa II than Quar. I had a male sired by Kiowa II out of an FC AFC Cheif Sands bitch that I purchased from Pat Sadler. His AKC Reg name is; Louisiana's Ragin Cajun and he became QAA with a Q Win. He was trained by Bill Little of Ontario, Canada. L'sRC died at a young age of cancer.

 

Tigathoe's Funky Farquar

 

Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119

JS,

Can you explain the correlation? I'm sure I am missing something obvious.

Melanie

 

Found this pic of the breeder, what a remarkable woman!

http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/flinn.htm

 

Jim Pickering wrote

A little Golden trivia for you this morning. As Steve mentioned Dual Ch AFC Tigathoe’s Funky Farquar, Quar” was a littermate to FC AFC Tigathoe’s Kiowa II, “Ki”. I have not idea how many litters each sired, but one would think that the Dual Ch of the two would have had more girls calling.

However, while Quar certainly sired some nice pups, he had no FC or AFC or CH pups to his credit. Ki on the other hand has to his credit 3 or 4 FC and/or AFC and (going from a questionable memory here) 3 CH pups.

Jim, could it be that in his day there were more really good Golden bitches located in the northeast closer to Ki than here in Texas, and AI was not as common as today? They were both great dogs. I did check K9data and found that Quar had 4 CH offspring, 12 QAA but no FCs or AFCs.

 

Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119
JS

The dogs from older lines, pre-Holway Barty were dual purpose. The old bloodlines could work in the field but, not as well as today's Golden. In the pre-Holway Barty era, one could count the successful Goldens throughout FT history on one hand. What Barty brought to the party was a smaller, lighter-boned and narrower frame field dog. Barty get were fast and many were as good in the water as they were on land. Barty is the reason that today's successful FT Goldens look they way that they do and not what they looked like in the early 1970's.

 

Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119

JS,

Can you explain the correlation? I'm sure I am missing something obvious.

Melanie

I’m not sure what correlation you are referring to;

From the photos I have seen of Quar and Ki ... and as I suggested, still photos provide a very limited picture (pun intended 8) ) of a dog’s conformation ... I like the looks of Ki and say that he better conforms to the standard. Furthermore, he might be competitive in the show ring today. Looking at the photo on k9data, he would fit in better with a typical cross section of show dogs than he would with a cross section of dogs you will see at a field trial today.

My comment you quoted stems from the numerous discussions on RTF in which many (most) seem to feel that the show people only, have “taken the breed to extremes way outside the standard” (paraphrasing). That’s not the way I see it and I offer Ki as an example. Of course, both types have diverged over time, but today's show dogs look more like Ki than today's field trial dogs.

JS

 

Those who argue today's conformation Goldens depart from the standard, should check out Ki's photo on k9data.
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=119
JS

The dogs from older lines, pre-Holway Barty were dual purpose. The old bloodlines could work in the field but, not as well as today's Golden. In the pre-Holway Barty era, one could count the successful Goldens throughout FT history on one hand. What Barty brought to the party was a smaller, lighter-boned and narrower frame field dog. Barty get were fast and many were as good in the water as they were on land. Barty is the reason that today's successful FT Goldens look they way that they do and not what they looked like in the early 1970's.

But I don't believe it was Barty's physical attributes alone that made him the dog he was. And I don't buy the notion that the physical makeup of todays show dogs, Goldens, Labs or whatever, is what makes them inferior. Other than some of those with ridiculously profuse coat (which only serves to slow them down in the water), there is nothing that precludes doing the work.
It is the total lack of selection for working traits in their background. The world is full of "smaller, lighter-boned, narrow-framed, fast dogs" That don't give a ratz azz about a dead duck. I got several of them in my neighborhood.
Retrievers are sprinters, not marathoners. And a field trial is not a race. They don't need to be built like pointers to run a 10 minute test. They just need to be conditioned.

It's not what they have that makes them bad; it's what they DON"T have that makes them not good.

JS

 

But I don't believe it was Barty's physical attributes alone that made him the dog he was. And I don't buy the notion that the physical makeup of todays show dogs, Goldens, Labs or whatever, is what makes them inferior. Other than some of those with ridiculously profuse coat (which only serves to slow them down in the water), there is nothing that precludes doing the work.
It is the total lack of selection for working traits in their background. The world is full of "smaller, lighter-boned, narrow-framed, fast dogs" That don't give a ratz azz about a dead duck. I got several of them in my neighborhood.
Retrievers are sprinters, not marathoners. And a field trial is not a race. They don't need to be built like pointers to run a 10 minute test. They just need to be conditioned.

It's not what they have that makes them bad; it's what they DON"T have that makes them not good.

JS

Barty brought more than just speed. However, it was his speed that attracted many to consider a Golden. Barty did a lot to help eliminate that slow return with bird, that Goldens are known for. Hard to remember that second, third or fourth bird when it takes forever for the dog to get back with the bird. Barty delivered a stylish, sound working dog as evident in NFC AFC Topbrass Cotton. One won't see the old time built Golden in FT today. Today's FT Golden are athletes and look like athelets, not bears. At least the successful ones are.

 

This thing of interpretation of the breed standard is so interesting. I think that the US even has a standard of its own that is different from the UK standard? We had a discussion of this dog:

http://www.rushhill.com/Pharley/index.html

at a European retriever forum and many thought that this dog looks strange and incorrect in relation to the standard in some aspects.


In Europe the show bred dogs look like this:

Crufts BOS 2006:

http://www.chinnordale.co.uk/dogs/billie/billie.htm

More pics including the BOB:

http://www.taygetosland.gr/html/crufts2006_1.htm


http://www.taygetosland.gr/html/crufts2006_1b.htm

The European FT dogs look like the Goldens in these series of pics (page 1, 2, 3, 7 and 19):

http://www.nickridley.com/2006 EOS/IGL/index.html

 

From the photos I have seen of Quar and Ki ... and as I suggested, still photos provide a very limited picture (pun intended 8) ) of a dog’s conformation ... I like the looks of Ki and say that he better conforms to the standard.

I'm not going to suggest that either was "more correct" because I wasn't fortunate enough to see these dogs in person, but am curious what you see in the limited photos we have of both of them to form this opinion.

We have a general idea of these dogs' looks from their pictures, but do we really know anything about their conformation? These are two totally different things (which I know you understand).

My comment you quoted stems from the numerous discussions on RTF in which many (most) seem to feel that the show people only, have “taken the breed to extremes way outside the standard” (paraphrasing). That’s not the way I see it and I offer Ki as an example.

I still am not getting it so be patient with me. I am one who does feel that show people have taken the breed to extremes (however I also feel field folks have taken it to extremes as well.) But what does this have to do with looking at the picture of Ki? You offer Ki as an example of what?

Of course, both types have diverged over time, but today's show dogs look more like Ki than today's field trial dogs.

That is a whole other topic for debate. :wink: There are endless examples of dogs playing in each venue that are closer to the standard and there are those that are at the extreme. I'm not sure it's possible to generalize as to which end has "more better" dogs.

Melanie

ps As a side note, did anyone notice that Push has a paternal grandsire that is linebred on FC AFC Ki and a maternal granddam that is linebred on Dual CH AFC Quar? Coincidence? 8)

 

ps As a side note, did anyone notice that Push has a paternal grandsire that is linebred on FC AFC Ki and a maternal granddam that is linebred on Dual CH AFC Quar? Coincidence?

I did, I did But then of course, I'm holding Push's pedigree in my hand and one of his get is at my feet.

 

Barty brought more than just speed. However, it was his speed that attracted many to consider a Golden. Barty did a lot to help eliminate that slow return with bird, that Goldens are known for. Hard to remember that second, third or fourth bird when it takes forever for the dog to get back with the bird. Barty delivered a stylish, sound working dog as evident in NFC AFC Topbrass Cotton. One won't see the old time built Golden in FT today. Today's FT Golden are athletes and look like athelets, not bears. At least the successful ones are.

Well, I agree with most of what you say. All except the Cotton part ... he was pretty well known for his slow returns. :wink:

But my point is not "what we have". Rather, "why we have it".

Nobody bred to Barty because he had small bone. They didn't care. He had what it takes to win and he passed it on. He would have been heavily used if he'd had 2 tails.

Likewise, those people who wanted to win in the show ring looked for different things. They could have cared less if a dog could mark. So why should we be surprised that they can't. Or that they don't want to.

What I take issue with is the notion that selecting for proper ear set, for example or heavier bone is why those dogs can't work. (We have these threads every time there's a dog show on TV :lol They can't work because they weren't bred to work. And, as I said earlier, a good many of those who can't work look just like the ones who can.
JS

 

Jim, could it be that in his day there were more really good Golden bitches located in the northeast closer to Ki than here in Texas, and AI was not as common as today? They were both great dogs. I did check K9data and found that Quar had 4 CH offspring, 12 QAA but no FCs or AFCs.

Thanks, Steve. I stand corrected. I hate it when my memory fails me and I have to look it all up again just to forget it again. However, since I just went though the GRCA Year Books and tallied up the progeny here are the Quar vs Ki stats:

It appears that both boy sired about 20-25 litters that produced titled puppies. There are certainly more. I could not bring myself to count progeny with only a WC, WCX or CD in the titled progeny count nor did I make any attempt to eliminate repeat breedings if any.

For reasons beyond my control there are three neat column until I check preview and it come out shuffled. So instead of tabs I will space with --- and hope anyone interested can follow it.
Title --- Quar --- Ki
CH ------ 5 ------ 1
FC AFC - 0 ------ 1
FTCH --- 0 ------ 1
AFC ----- 0 ------ 3
*** ----- 15 ----- 15
UDTX ---- 1 ------ 0
UDT ------ 1 ------ 0
UD ------ 4 ------ 7
CDX ----- 3 ------ 2

Mr. Booty thanks for sharing your experience, observations from some years back. I have often wonder if there would be any field trial Goldens today if not for Holway Barty. Or maybe if Barty had not come along, the qualities desirable for a field trial retriever would have come from other lines and just maybe we would have a bit larger gene pool today. In a perfect world we would have had Barty and several other lines producing the desirable qualities.

 

I still am not getting it so be patient with me. I am one who does feel that show people have taken the breed to extremes (however I also feel field folks have taken it to extremes as well.) But what does this have to do with looking at the picture of Ki? You offer Ki as an example of what?

The topic comes up here every time we have a dog show on TV and the consensus is usually that those show dogs are the ones that have deviated from the standard. Much show dog bashing.

I offer Ki as an example of the typical Golden from years past, before there was such a split in our breed.

I go to field trials. I go to hunt tests. I go to dog shows.

I look at that picture of Ki and I conclude that the dogs I see at dog shows look more like Ki than those I see at FTs and HTs. Nothing more than that.

JS

 

It's funny because I would have never thought that owning both a Barty and KiowaII male would be something special. But looking back 30 years, those two have become the bigger name today as studs. I aslo had a Sungold Lad's Taliman female as well named, Wyngate's Creole Cayanne.

My Barty male, AKC name is; Rhett's Bayou, call name Rhett. At two years, fully-muscled, Rhett weighted 65 lbs. He had a dense short very curly coat with moderate leg and tail feathering. He was a quick learner, had no adversions about water and was one speed, full-throttle. Rhett had one major problem though, he had Primary Idiopathic Seberria. He did not take the summers here well and he would loose all the hair on his chest, mussle and face including eye-rims. His skin was always oozing and you had to keep him clear or it really smelled bad. I ended up selling Rhett to a duck hunter from Empire, La. with his condition disclosed.

My Kiowa II male, AKC name is; Louisiana's Ragin Cajun, call name Coo-yon. Bill Little did most of his transition and AA work. John Parker from Lufkin, Tx did his basics and ran him in a Rocky Mt Circuit around the summer of 81 in Derby. He won a Q with Bill handling at Niagra Falls, NY. Got out of the game from 1982 till 2000, so Cooyon was my personal hunting dog until he passed in 86 with Cancer. Cooyon was a big regal Golden male, always looking so proud!

Anyone have any FC AFC Wyngate's Sungold Sundance in their dog's pedigree?

Sundance was a very stylish and handsome dog. Tall and lean, medium to light gold in color. He was trained and owned locally by Amateur Ken Gootee. Sundance was by Wyngate's Sungold King who is by FC AFC Misty Sungold Lad. King belonged to Buddy Clesi of New Orleans and Wyngate was his kennel name.