[Team Tater]

I just joined the RTF and find lots of the threads to be great information and helpful in the training of my two labs. I have looked but did not find any threads on a subject I could use some help with.

I have a 13 month yellow female, who has so much drive, and is so excited to make retrieves that when the retrieves are over 120 yards, she is moving so fast she misses the mark. She usually hunts it up ok after (if) she slows down. I have started taking her out for pheasant and quail and she runs herself ragged looking for birds.

I work her on lots of marks in different locations (and with a local trainer for the longer marks and birds) and she is also in the double T phase of her handling drills. I have tried waiting for a 10 count before releasing her, but that did not seem to help. While she is fun to watch in the field (I want to get her into some hunt tests as well a hunt), I need to slow her down a bit so she will better find the marks, all without ruining her prey drive.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

 

[FOM]

My first suggestion was going to be slow down, but you stated you are doing this.

So I would suggest to try and balance out your long vs. short marks. If all you have done is long then the dog won't learn to check down.

Also if she keeps blowing through the marks, try a dirt clod drill (use search feature for an explanation or talk to the local Pro you are training with).

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

Had one we needed to slow down, I don't think it's slow them down as much as training their brain to keep up. Found that if you can find something that makes them have to think, engage the nose, and correct them when they over-run they'll slow down. In birds, hidden/moving bird, birds of different depths. The thing that made the most difference was we started running Narha and training on trailing, they have to do this all by themselves, and a fast unthinking dog is very quickly off a trail and lost. They have to be brought back to the trail and run it again and again until they'll stay on the trail, come back to scent areas, negotiate turns and cover changes. Also train on quartering a fast dog misses birds in the field. Once they realize they're missing birds (whether they actually do or you make it seem like they do :twisted, and they have to come back and work area several times, they start slowing down and thinking. It transfers over really well to learning to check back on bird, when they over-run something. Now, Our Speed demon will be going 100 mph on a mark gonna over-run hit the scent cone and bam the nose stops and the body turns 180 degrees and he's back with the bird ready for the next.

 

[jeff evans]

My first suggestion was going to be slow down, but you stated you are doing this.

So I would suggest to try and balance out your long vs. short marks. If all you have done is long then the dog won't learn to check down.

Also if she keeps blowing through the marks, try a dirt clod drill (use search feature for an explanation or talk to the local Pro you are training with).

Gosh I dont see the application of the dirt clod drill for over-running marks? leaving the area of an established hunt yes but for overrunning I dont see it. I would be interested in your thought?

 

[FOM]

Gosh I dont see the application of the dirt clod drill for over-running marks? leaving the area of an established hunt yes but for overrunning I dont see it. I would be interested in your thought?

You are right I'm thinking of a different drill...sorry multi-tasking at work.

FOM

 

[Colonel Blimp]

TT Take this for what it's worth or indeed what you've paid for it.;-)

I have a 13 month yellow female, who has so much drive .... she is moving so fast she misses the mark. I have started taking her out for pheasant and quail and she runs herself ragged looking for birds.

I work her on lots of marks in different locations (and with a local trainer for the longer marks and birds) and she is also in the double T phase of her handling drills ... I need to slow her down a bit so she will better find the marks, all without ruining her prey drive.

I don't think she has too much drive, rather than imbalance in her training, and a lack of direction. Given that she isn't past TT but you are letting her run virtually wild in a game scented area the best advice I can give is ..... stop it.

Make marks a relatively minor part of her profile pro tem; all you are doing by continuing with them is compounding the problem. Don't allow her to run free, that's not achieving anything. Ask yourself "What is to be gained?"

Concentrate on those drills that teach your dog that not every retrieve belongs to her; run cold blinds and memory retrieves; make her honour other dogs, pick a large percentage of marks yourself; above all else make her concentrate on YOU, not do her own thing once you've released her.

Eug

 

[labsforme]

In addition to check down marks and varying the distances.On the marks she is consistantly over running try salting the area first with 4 or 5 bumpers spread out so she doesn't shop.This has worked for me.If that doesn't work send her to Molalla Oregon I may have room.

 

[Buzz]

In addition to check down marks and varying the distances.On the marks she is consistantly over running try salting the area first with 4 or 5 bumpers spread out so she doesn't shop.This has worked for me.If that doesn't work send her to Molalla Oregon I may have room.

I agree except, I'd rather use birds...

I would take the dog of your hands for a bag of dog food...

 

[Hunchaser]

The best way to control high desire is with lots of intelligent work. Start the training session with either a super long single, maybe 300 - 400 yds then start training. Or even better a ring of singles at about 200 yds. ( 5 throws, 45 paces apart, once the dog gets the bird and is heading to the handler the gunner moves to the next spot.) Don't worry about running past the G just wait until she comes back with the bird. On the marks where he overruns the mark you could repeat those once.

Now the dog is tired and a tired dog will stop the running around and get to work.

Then move into your regular session. Set up multiple marks and you could do them as singles that will depend where your dog is at. Follow the 17 marking concepts and the long bird, short bird is a great suggestion.

Change your schedule to train 70%, 30% blinds/yard work. On the blind days do pattern blinds ( 1 set of 3 blinds, 45 paces apart, about 100 - 200 yds) Run each pattern blind twice.) That will give the dog confidence and working will help with the desire problem. Again once you have finished the pattern blinds go do another drill.

 

[8mmag]

Follow the 17 marking concepts and the long bird, short bird is a great suggestion.

Can you elaborate on this? This is new terminology to me, us noobs need more 'splainin'.

 

[Randy Bohn]

Over running marks is ususally a sign that your dog isn't concentrating enough at the line...make them sit still and you may be surprised! Randy

 

[Team Tater]

WOW! so many opinions and I thank you all. I think there may have been some misunderstanding about the situation.

Don't allow her to run free, that's not achieving anything. Ask yourself "What is to be gained?"

She does not run wild. She quarters at about 30 yards, does not chase missed birds, honors other dogs, stops pretty well on the whistle (could be better), does not hunt on her own and observes where I am at all times in the field. She just does it all as fast as she can possibly run. I swear her feet never touch the ground.

There are several good ideas here and I will try out a few of them. Thanks

 

[smok'in gun]

Sounds like you got alot of dog to train. Enjoy.

Jeff

 

[Buzz]

My suggestion would be to pay special attention to what Randy said.

Pay no attention to the Golden in his avatar picture! (OK, just kidding.)

He has a track record on such things...

 

[Mark Littlejohn]

Throw more 121 yd marks.

To Randy's point, she's simply not marking.

ml

 

[Orion Labradors]

No dog has too much drive.
Trainability is very important, but even Chopper pups can be trained. A pro recently ran a Chopper dog at a hunt test. The dog came off the truck to air and was wild as a march hare!!! Wild going to the first holding blind. I thought this ain't going to happen! The minute the Chooper dog hit the first holding blind he was fully compliant. He was rock steady when the guns went off and fully obedient. He had perfect scores.
Get the Mike Lardy training and marking dvds and use his program. Consistent training will have positive results.

 

[Buzz]

No dog has too much drive.
Trainability is very important, but even Chopper pups can be trained. A pro recently ran a Chopper dog at a hunt test. The dog came off the truck to air and was wild as a march hare!!! Wild going to the first holding blind. I thought this ain't going to happen! The minute the Chooper dog hit the first holding blind he was fully compliant. He was rock steady when the guns went off and fully obedient. He had perfect scores.
Get the Mike Lardy training and marking dvds and use his program. Consistent training will have positive results.

Are you saying that Chopper dogs are wild? LOL! I have one. He is as wild as they come, but he is sensitive and really wants to please. The trick is teaching what you want and after he understands enforcing the standard without beating him up. High maintenance but he'll try really really hard to do what you want, IF he knows what you expect from him. Freak of nature when it comes to marking ability...

 

[Hunchaser]

Can you elaborate on this? This is new terminology to me, us noobs need more 'splainin'.

Sorry for the confusion. Some concepts would be:
Short gun/long gun.
By the gunner
Between the gunners
By the old fall
Between the falls
Angle backs, 90 degree throws, angle ins
Punch birds
big water
by the boat

Things like that. There's a finite number of concepts and if you keep a training chart then you'll have a record of the concepts taught and know strengths and soft spots in your training.

 

[8mmag]

Sorry for the confusion. Some concepts would be:
Short gun/long gun.
By the gunner
Between the gunners
By the old fall
Between the falls
Angle backs, 90 degree throws, angle ins
Punch birds
big water
by the boat

Things like that. There's a finite number of concepts and if you keep a training chart then you'll have a record of the concepts taught and know strengths and soft spots in your training.

Thanks, can you suggest a good reference listing and for teaching these concepts, and the drills & training sequences suggested for mastering them?

 

[Hunchaser]

Thanks, can you suggest a good reference listing and for teaching these concepts, and the drills & training sequences suggested for mastering them?

I can't find my old training books but I do have a ton of notes. I haven't seen them but the Lardy books/tapes and Hillman tapes may be exactly what you are looking for.

Here's a couple of marking patterns that I like to use:

Chinese Triple (teaches straight back throws, 90 degree throws, angle backs, between the gunners, between the falls, by falls and gunners, long gun short gun, punch bird, tight converging marks.)

In line triples ( work on the middle bird as most dogs want to do the outside birds first then the middle bird) (use it to teach diagonals and go past falls and gunners)

4 types of hip pockets. Add in a 3rd gunner off the side and you've got a great training test. ( Inside rigt, inside left, outside left and outside right.)

My favorite is the Rex Carr Inverted V. Teaches just about all the dog needs to know.

Into the wind marks. Set up so that memory bird is retired and thrown into the wind. The 2nd bird is off somewhere usually about 90 degrees from the memory bird. 3rd, go bird is thrown 90 degrees down wind with the gunner wearing a white coat. The go bird should be shorter - half the distance than the memory bird and fairly tight. Example - Memory bird into wind, out 200 yds. retired. 2nd bird off to the right 150 yds, easy mark. Go bird 100 yds thrown down wind and the gun station around 15 to 20 degrees to the left of the memroy bird.

The idea is that you want to suck the dog back into the go bird for a correction. Then repeat the memory bird as a single. Very effective test to get the dog to do great into the wind marks. The stronger the wind the better.

Send me an e-mail and I can go into more detail on concepts and the best way to teach them.