I would certainly choose the sole-practitioner over a clinic with several partners. However, I am sure the Vet. in the article makes considerably more than the article implies.

Lonnie Spann

 

Lonnie, somewhere in there they stated that the AVERAGE starting salary was around $45k, with many working contract, intern, residency, etc for far less. I guess my question is how much more schooling, insurance and overhead expenses could a private practice cover?

 

I really can't answer that question. Any profession will come with huge expenses, or at least mine did. It's a business not an entitlement, it ends up being what the professional makes of it. What I'm trying to say is, a Vet. can make a mint or they can go broke it comes down to BUSINESS sense.

Lonnie Spann

 

This is a very hot topic in the vet world. Many practioners are going out of business. Young grads trying to figure out how to pay off student loans, start a family, buy a house etc.

I would tell anyone that tells me they want to be a vet, to reconsider. Long hours, inconsiderate clients, poor pay.

Been there, still doing that.

 

I haven't been really impressed with many newly graduating vets, they're sort've uppity, mainly those who have lived in school their whole lives and not really out in the world animal or otherwise doing anything. Lots of $$$ testing, spay-neuter @ birth, few social skills and know it all attitudes. Seems a franchise practice might be a good place to start for that type, get some real world experience before they try to make it on their own, if they ever do. Down home country common since vets are becoming few and far between. School debt is sky-high vs. earning potential, doesn't make a bunch of since to go Vet when you could go Doc or Nurse in the same time period, with basically the same class structure, less in that your only studying one animal and with the same after school debt.

 

Ny neice just finished Vet school. When I saw her over the holidays she was a little nervous about finding employment. I wish her luck!!!

 

Every college degree comes with the risk of not being able to pay your loans.This is a sad fact. My vet is from India. He was educated there. I think he does a great job and his practice looks to be successful. He has put down 3 pets for us over the years. He was great each time, explaining the whole thing to my daughter who was 6 the first time. I really like the guy...

 

The problem of healthcare education debt is the same for humans and animals. While many may prefer the solo private Doc they are becoming an "endangered species".
The new Dr. fresh out of training has financial obligations. He/She can not afford to buy into or buy out ole Dr. Jones and the idea another 1/2-3/4 million loan to set up is not attractive or possible. So new Doc takes a salary position with large group or national frachise while ole Dr. Jones just one day closes the door.

Tim

 

True, but some of this rests on ole Dr. Jones as well.

There are many ways to structure a succession plan so that you can grow your own buyer. In my experience, ole Dr. Jones is always too busy to talk about it, or if he gets around to talking about it he thinks it is too expensive and time consuming to fool with. He forsakes the opportunity to set up his opportunity to cash out, and he does end up just closing his practice - getting nothing for it - when he could easily have set up a cash out situation.

There are also ways to do this without giving up control (or any actual ownership, for that matter), and even provide disincentives for the new guy (or not so new guy) to stick around rather than walk across the street and compete with you.

 

What if ole Dr. Jones took on an apprentice? Say free room and board, small salary to pay school bills and eventually the practice. I guess its too late for that as the big franchise's have taken such a stronghold. I am too nostalgic. We used the same vet for 30 years. The old guy knew us and all of our animals as well as his own family. His wife was a total witch with the calculator and pen, but she kept that business profitable enough to put their oldest son through vet school without loans. When the old man passed away about 10 years ago, his son had already had years of experience working with both of his parents, and now has a highly respected and profitable practice. Mainly horses, but small animals too for his "customers". This guy was a school mate of mine.

 

It's getting to be real bad in the large animal side. I get to see a lot of Vet students with my work. I'm sure they are great kids, that are really smart, but I see very few that will ever see or work with livestock (horses not included) after they leave vet school. It's hard enough to make it in dogs and cats, much less driving all over the country doctoring cattle.

The requirements for Vet School admission have become so competitive, and over the top, a lot of would be GREAT Cow docs never get a chance because they can't get into vet school. I was an Ag major, and had a couple really close friends that made really good grades. Good guys with a lot of "on the farm" sense, but they couldn't get in Vet school. Seems more like the type Hunt'emUp described are the ones going through now. One local large animal vet went out of the US to Vet school because he couldn't get in a US school. Darn good vet too!

 

2008 Auburn University CVM graduates left school with a diploma and an average of $100,000 student loan to repay on an entry level salary of about $50,000. After living expenses are subtracted there is precious little left for repaying a loan. Specialization in veterinary medicine is the primary path to decent compensation. Many schools have recognized the dwindling supply of food animal veterinarians and have endeavored to take that into account in their admission policies but it may be too late.

 

I think the problem is more endemic than industry related. College has gotten more expensive than the degree is worth....with the exception of maybe law school, and medical school, but an argument can be made in those industries too. One thing is for sure, starting a business has become less and less feasible over time. Couple student loan debt, with the debt of starting a new business, and a $150,000 income simply wont support it. Today, kids who go to college come out expecting too much for what they have. Sorry if that ruffles some feathers, but it's simply the case.

What ever happened to the days of starting with a company, putting in 10 years in order to get a good promotion? The avereage length a young person stays at a job now is 2 years. That's it. No business owner is going to sell out to those types of people. After all, he didn't work for 30 years to turn his business over to someone who will more than likely be looking for something else to do in 2 years anyway.

 

I just want to preface this post by saying that I am not trying to gloat, ask for a pity-party, or complain. I just want to throw a few different ideas around for y'all....

It is true, I am one of those guys that have always wanted to be a vet, even since I was 5 years old, and I am one of those stubborn people who would not change that; regardless of student debt. I have been very blessed in my life and am 2 months away from my final year in vet school at Purdue University, so I can only speak from my experience in my personal life and with my school. I will try and touch on most of the topics above..sorry in advance for a long post....

- We are aware at Purdue that the business aspect of veterinary medicine is lacking; actually, this is a common theme in almost all veterinary schools in the country. However, at purdue, we a required to take the "Veterinary Business Class". This is not an elective course, and is so important to our life after vet school. We learn about things like retirement planning, student loans/debt management, private practice ownership, contract negotiations, etc. Purdue makes a great effort to teach us as much about the business aspect of things that they can; it is also important to note that the two professors that teach this have both owned successful practices of their own. However, they are currently at Purdue because academia/education was the path that they could have the biggest impact. We also get multiple lectures from GL-Advisor reps, and we even had a bank manager come in and speak with us. She was nice enough to give us her business card for free consultations anytime, as her husband is currently a veterinary resident at purdue, so she knows the ropes about vet debt and loan repayments, etc. I will be honest and agree with some of those above that we are not educated in business enough. None of our undergraduate requirements for vet school involve business; they are your basic science/math/english courses. Therefore, the only business education that we get is in our class at Purdue.

- It is also true that student loan debt is at an incredibly high level; it is double that for out of state students. I am in a position where I realize that God has truly blessed me with in-state tuition. I would like to raise a question that I didnt catch in the article. The numbers mentioned for average veterinary school debt seem like they only included veterinary school. What about the 2-4 years of undergrad that those students are required to take before admittance into vet school? What if those undergraduate degrees were done in an out-of-state institution rate? I would almost bet that they did not include those rates, but I could be wrong.

- To touch on the personality of vets...I am not siding anybody here, but I would like to describe what our daily routine is like...again, please dont think I am bragging or complaining, etc. But this may help some of those understand why some vets seem a little "unpersonable". So the daily routine involves leaving for school before the sun comes up. In the winter and the part of hte year when the days are shorter, I am usually getting home after the sun sets; in the spring, I usually get home in time with a few hours to spare (how exciting, right! The simple things in life...) I spend an average of 10 hours (give or take an hour) AT school, monday through friday. I come home, run the dogs if there is daylight, spend an hour or so with my wife, and study until I fall asleep. I can honestly say I spend about 14-15 hours each day dealing with school stuff (attending lectures, writing papers, studying for exams, etc). I am proud to say that my classmates work just as hard, if not harder than I do, and we have all seen each other at our worst. The social life doesnt really exist like it did in undergrad and high school. We all want to be great vets, but this requires many years of hard work. Personality varies from person to person, regardless of their previous experiences. However, vet school, as mentioned above, can bring the worst out of us at times. Long hours, alot of studying, and 4 years away from friends and family can really affect ones personality and social well-being. If you are not careful, this vet school thing seems like it can suck the life right out of you! I am also blessed that I have a wonderful wife to keep me sane, and the best friends and family to pick me up as well. Howver, I can see how those who dont have a solid foundational support group can sometimes lose that wonderful personality that they once had. Please keep this in mind when you are dealing with that vet with no personality. It is sometimes unfortunate that vets are judged more on their personality that their quality of medicine. I have seen great vets with great personalities. I have also seen not-soo-good medicine practice by vets that mean well and have EXCELLENT personalities. With that being said, my point is that a bad personality doesnt make you a bad vet. (I am not trying to pick one side or another on this one...I personally enjoy my personal doctor who has a wonderful personality...however, I dont know too much about human medicine, so I am also one who judges him based on interaction with me).

- As a shameless plug for Purdue, we have MULTIPLE communication modules that teach us about client interaction. Purdue recognizes this communication barrier that sometimes exists and attempts to prepare us for this when we are out in the real world.

- Regarding the private practice/corporate practice thing. We have had multiple people tell us that if we want to be practice owners, we should work a few years before buying into a practice or starting your own. It does seem true that corporate practices are able to spend more money on "toys". As vet students, we are taught in a facility with top of the line diagnostics (MRI, CT, etc) and practice very high quality medicine right out of school. To start your own practice from nothing requires an exceptionally large loan (or alot of money, if you are fortunate enough to have it). It is recommended, from my understanding, to go to a place when you first graduate that practices high quality medicine so that you can have great tools accessible, as well as good mentors the first few years out of school. In my opinion, I would not want to start practicing at a place that has minimal diagnostics my first few years out of school. They say you learn the most in your career the first few years, and if you want to be the best vet you can be, it makes sense to go to a place that will make this possible. Corporate places seem to really attract new grads, and this is my observation with my classmates. However, there are private practices out there that practice great medicine. I worked in private practice (not as a vet, of course) for 7 years before getting into vet school at a place that practices very high quality medicine (just as an assistant, not a veterinarian, of course). These places are out there, we just have to search for them. As students we are taught to make ourselves as marketable as we can, and to find a niche that you enjoy. Naturally, I have an interest in canine sports medicine and rehabilitation, orthopedics, canine reproduction, and dentistry (broad, I know, but really enjoy these niches). Finding what you enjoy and being good at it really makes it more likely that you will be hired in a great private practice setting.

It does seem true that there may be fewer and fewer "good 'ole boys" out there in private practice these days. As mentioned above, I think the increasing student debt is scaring people away from practice ownership, because in addition to a house payment, car payment, student loan, and the potential cost of children, practice ownership debt just may not be feasible.

- Lastly (for now anyways), I just ask that y'all keep this in mind when you go to the vet. Nobody likes to pay a lot of money for anything (milk prices, gas prices, vet bills, etc.). However, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people say "vet bills are too high", "vets are only in it for the money", etc etc. I want y'all to know that during an interview for vet school, when asked "Jeremy, why do you want to be a veterinarian"...if the answer is because I liek animals and do not like to work with or help people, you have immediately eliminated yourself from the applicant pool. My class is full of people who KNOWINGLY will take on the low salary and high student loans. We have a passion for helping people like YOU and YOUR animals, but also realize vets have employees to pay, utility bills to pay, families to feed, and of course, student loan debt that never goes away. My professor once told me to charge your clients for the quality of medicine you provide them. If you dont have great diagnostics and cant provide good quality medicine, then go to a practice that does or charge less.

Again, I am sorry that these are just a bunch of random thoughts and they are pretty jumbled. This was not meant to complain, ask for a pity-party, or anything like that. I enjoy what I am learning and cant wait to finally graduate. Just thought I would throw an opinion out there since the article posted at the beginning of this thread really hits home.

 

Yes, it is still quite competitive...and expensive... to become a veterinarian. There were over 1600 applicants the year I applied. Our class numbered 68 (65 graduated), and there were several in there who had applied multiple times before being accepted. It makes it more difficult and more competitive since there are many fewer veterinary schools than medical/dental/etc. schools nationwide. I suppose as far as the schools are concerned, it becomes an economic decision for them as well, as businesses. Supply and demand. If the schooling is still in high demand, they will continue to increase their costs of admission/attending.

I started vet school almost 20 years ago (yikes- though I was one of the youngest in my class at the time) so I'm not a new grad anymore, and as an internship-trained, acupuncture-trained, PennHIP certified vet with special interest in soft tissue surgery- especially skin grafts, etc- and canine repro, I do offer a variety of services to my bosses and my clients/patients. Having said that, I can tell you that the economy has REALLY hit our area hard.

I had been pursuing relief work for about the past year, as it allowed the flexibility to participate in shooting events, dog events, and other hobbies when they would come up. However, when some of the practices were struggling to get even 1-2 veterinary appointments in a single day, making it difficult for them to pay the electricity bill (much less the staff and veterinarian on duty), more and more veterinary practice owners around here started coming back out of retirement to work themselves as well as some closing their doors multiple days per week (or simply offering to be open just for RX or food pick-ups, suture removals, or things that a veterinarian wasn't required for). That left my chosen path with very few options, so I went ahead and signed on with a veterinary clinic that actually added hours just to accomodate (and be able to afford) me. I am very blessed to have a job, and one that wanted me so much to actually hire additional staff just to bring me on board... and one in a phenomenal hospital with outstanding staff, great clientelle, and wonderful equipment. However, my next year is spent working W-Th-Fr-Sat-Sun, leaving my weekend hobbies (such as hunt tests or other dog events, shooting competitions, etc.) largely lacking my participation.

So yes... Even for those of us who have been out of school for some time (though not "old-timers" by any means, and yes, we too were trained with MRI/CT scans/linear accelerators, ultrasound and many other modalities often offered only by vet schools or referral practices) and are well-versed in the field, relatively business saavy, and pursue the practice of outstanding medicine and surgery have been hit hard in many many areas of the nation.

Not just the new grads.

Here is one more article that I think is a good one... and one that I sometimes wish some of my more difficult clients would read : http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/dont-be-a-jerk-at-the-vets

 

Thanks for posting that article. My wife just showed that to me a couple days ago but I couldnt find it

 

The vet I used when I lived in northern WI has a booming small animal practice. He's fairly young, and right out of vet school, rather than joining an established practice, he bought a van and set up a mobile practice, making house calls. He saved what he could, and about five or six years in, he bought a small house and converted it to a small, efficient clinic. He's a good vet, prices are reasonable, and his overhead is a lot less than the big, fancy McMansion style clinics.

Another vet friend enlisted in the Army first, then went to school on the GI bill. About ten years ago, he offered to put me through vet school if I'd join his practice when I graduated...I said thanks but no thanks.

Yet another vet friend managed to work while going to school and graduated with minimal student loans and has a large solo equine practice.

There are also locations that are in dire need of vets, and deals can be had where your schooling is paid for if you basically indenture yourself to that locale for something like three or four years...I can't recall the specifics exactly.

 

The vet I used when I lived in northern WI has a booming small animal practice. He's fairly young, and right out of vet school, rather than joining an established practice, he bought a van and set up a mobile practice, making house calls. He saved what he could, and about five or six years in, he bought a small house and converted it to a small, efficient clinic. He's a good vet, prices are reasonable, and his overhead is a lot less than the big, fancy McMansion style clinics.

Another vet friend enlisted in the Army first, then went to school on the GI bill. About ten years ago, he offered to put me through vet school if I'd join his practice when I graduated...I said thanks but no thanks.

Yet another vet friend managed to work while going to school and graduated with minimal student loans and has a large solo equine practice.

There are also locations that are in dire need of vets, and deals can be had where your schooling is paid for if you basically indenture yourself to that locale for something like three or four years...I can't recall the specifics exactly.

Local gal here specializes in horses. She's getting a good reputation and has a 10 year old Ford with a vet box. Seems to be gaining momentum. I watched her do some work on a horse which had a real bad cut on the back of the hoof. Horse arteries spray a good distance when cut. She did a heck of a job.

 

Interesting thread with the proper level of whine but some very good posts. We all like to work with someone who enjoys their profession, we also like to work with someone who is competent.

I put a dog through 5 different vets to the tune of about $3K before someone suggested I do an allergy panel, that vet had just finished a $7K operation to remove the dogs ability to hear from one ear. There were a lot of clues missed along the way & it is partially my fault for farming the dog out for training so I missed the symptoms. Which BTW, were properly discussed on this forum .

But this isn't a vet whine thread other than: anyone who will assume that level of debt is not someone I want working on my dog, their life is too much into themselves. The student debt thing is a big deal these days, why would anyone create a debt without knowing how they will pay it off? Last Sunday's paper had a breakdown of several young folks who managed to get through the education required without large debt & in most cases paid for it themselves.

I don't believe any profession has more rigorous training than corresponding professions that create value for society. It has a lot to do with where our interests lie. It might not be a bad idea that the new slightly experienced vets have the cost of of paying for an established practice to tie them to performance .

The State of WA has one vet school which they share with ID & Alaska - 40 applicants accepted per year, 1/2 must be female. Sounds like a vet shortage to me.

 

It's a reality that the cost of education has risen to well beyond people's earning potential these days in most fields, medical and health being the worst.

A vet with 300 grand in school expenses is in real poverty for a long time based on the pay rates in the field. An orthopedic surgeon who is a client of mine, by the time he finished school and bought into a practice was 900 grand in debt before he started.

Having managed a collections team for Sallie Mae student loans in both the government backed and private supplemental loan businesses, I can tell you there's literally NOTHING worse than student loan debt. Think $100,000 in credit card debt that hasn't been paid on in a few years. Your freshman loans sit until after you graduate accruing daily compound interest, just like a credit card, unless you or your parents can make payments along the way.

My recommendation to my son... Go to local community college, then state school (in state) for your bachelors. Keep the cost down on your undergrad work. Get into the best Masters program you can qualify for, because that's what people will look at anyhow, and spend the money there. At least that way, you have the best chance of getting a good position out of school and a possibility of surviving the repayment of the student loans.

It's really a terrible situation any more for anyone who wants to be a professional person in America.

Every day we head further and further into a world where it's going to be the haves and have nots.

 

Difference is that Ortho will sign a guaranteed contract for 600k, the Vet, be lucky if he gets 50K. Don't let that Ortho, fool ya....

 

Veterinarians are no different than any other professionals. Some are outstanding and some you wonder just how they had enough sense to get through school! In my profession some of my colleagues are very brilliant and some are "not so brilliant", some are very personable and some are just plain jerks! Regardless of the profession, you will always have to deal with the human element and therein lies the component which most people are judged by and perhaps the one component which many, if not most, individuals use as their deciding factor on whether or not to employ said professional, be it medical doctor, dentist, attorney, accountant, veterinarian, etc.

A new veterinarian graduate has the same opportunity to have a successful/profitable practice as did a graduate from 30 years ago. There will always be a need for these professionals and as long as they do their job right, treat their clients with respect and use some common business sense, they should be able to have a successful career in their chosen profession.

Death, taxes, and STUDENT LOANS, all part of this journey.

Lonnie still paying my student loans Spann

 

I'm so thankful and appreciative of the very good vets available in my area, even though they're becoming the minority. It seems like there's a growing number of young vets fully indoctrinated into AR-think. For many years, I used a wonderful old country vet that I just figured was the norm for this area, which is rural; his clinic was local and convenient. The doc had grown up locally on a farm, was an avid bird hunter and probably is now rolling in his grave at what happened to his clinic. As soon as it changed hands the quality of the vets seemed to decline along with the length of time they spent there. Every time I took a dog in, there seemed to be entirely new stable of young vets, each one more militantly animal rights than the previous, complete with the tsk tsk finger pointing and lectures about the irresponsibility of breeders, the importance of spay/neuter before weaning, along with evils of the local hunting based culture. Final straw for me was when I took a litter in for dew claw removal and had to argue why I wanted them removed. Then almost had a heart attack when the vet came out and said, "You wanted me to dock the tails, right?"

Last thing I need is for some dewy eyed, newly minted vet school grad. to give me a lecture on the evils of breeding and how I owe it to society to spay/neuter my pups before 8 weeks. Are they now mandating animal rights as part of vet school curriculum? It sure seems that way. Meanwhile, generations of school children are being force fed HSUS/PETA propaganda masquerading as "educational material", and no doubt many of those "animal lovers" will go on to vet school because of their desire to "help" animals ((((((shudder))))))). I'm sure there still are young vets that come from a rural or sporting background, but I'll bet they're an endangered species.

 

The local equine practice I used (note the past tense) has two young, straight-out-of-vet-school young women working as equine vets along with the owner, who is a good guy and good veterinarian. Neither of these two gals seem to know much about horses, talk to clients in soft, baby-talk like voices like we're kindergartners, and between them they don't have the common sense of a gnat. But they are great at prescribing the wrong meds (twice now) and overcharging for them, plus racking up additional charges that were not requested or discussed. The vet tech is far more horses savvy than either of the two ladies. I've informed the front desk that when I call for an appointment, if I can't get Dr. G, I don't want the other two and will reschedule, and that if meds are needed, write me a 'scrip. And am likely going to switch vets once I discuss it with Dr. G. and explain why, since I've been referred to and found a good young country vet with a mobile practice and common sense.

I know they have student loans to pay. And I will gladly pay whatever is required for necessary services, provided competently.

 

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is the sheer cost of the facility itself. A fully equipped vets office is very, very spendy. A vets office is essentially a hospital (X-Ray, Surgery suite, pharmacy, etc).

I too have zero sympathy for folks with all of this student loan debt. You know the deal when you sign up for it.

Vets are like any other profession, if you do a good job for folks, they will tell other folks, and you will have more business than you know what to do with.

I also think that the colleges and universities are going to have to get back to the real world. The amounts that they are charging for degrees (especially advanced degrees) is ridiculous. The "for profit" schools (even some on-line schools) are really going to be game changers when it comes to higher education. When this current batch of student loans go bad, and folks start paying their own way, the schools are going to be in trouble.

 

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is the sheer cost of the facility itself. A fully equipped vets office is very, very spendy. A vets office is essentially a hospital (X-Ray, Surgery suite, pharmacy, etc).

I too have zero sympathy for folks with all of this student loan debt. You know the deal when you sign up for it.

Vets are like any other profession, if you do a good job for folks, they will tell other folks, and you will have more business than you know what to do with.

I also think that the colleges and universities are going to have to get back to the real world. The amounts that they are charging for degrees (especially advanced degrees) is ridiculous. The "for profit" schools (even some on-line schools) are really going to be game changers when it comes to higher education. When this current batch of student loans go bad, and folks start paying their own way, the schools are going to be in trouble.

Very true but, they start "Rushing" kids while still in high school. Oldest is 15, qualified for National Honor Society as a freshman, takes all AP classes, not sure he is really mine and gets requests to visit Colleges from around the nation. At least 4 universities send their junk to him each week and this started in November of 2012. They are recruiting high school kids just like the sports programs do and use the student loan program to hook them. It's predatory IMO.

 

Carol, I don't think it is possible "to walk away from these student loans"
I believe they are excluded from bankruptcy discharge

 

Trust me Marc, they can walk away. Clearing the record through bankruptcy procedures is not that big a concern when it comes to paying for groceries or the big debt.

 

Student loans don't go away after bankruptcy. There is no way to walk away from them.

 

Sorry Sharon. I did not state that clearly. I know bankruptcy does not absolve or forgive Govt backed education loans. But that will NOT make people pay them. Them boots were made for walkin' and that's just what they'll do.

Dr Ed is right on the money. The only winners are the insurance industry. How does that always happen?

 

McVet is coming soon to a location near you. If you have the need for anything more than minor procedures or diagnostics you will be referred to a specialty practice. Get and keep pet health insurance.

 

Being a DMV with a large student loan is a lot better than having a degree in fine arts with a large student loan.