[RaeganW]

From time to time the subject of clicker training comes up on this forum. I thought some of you might be interested in seeing what it looks like in practice. This is a video of me training my young Toller, Pilot. I am working specifically on two things: return and deliver to right side heel (not just to my hand), and not shaking/chewing the bumper on those last three feet of the return (which is a chronic problem).

https://youtu.be/P6LaAkeau3w

We start with a pivot brick to help him line up correctly, and start interspersing reps without the aid.

Chewiness is more likely as the retrieve goes up in excitement, so we have a very simple set up of the gunner handing off the bumper from very close up. In the first sessions of working on this problem, he started at the gunner and only ran the return (reverse retrieve). In sessions after this we have started low-key tosses and longer distances.

You can see how I respond to errors, no reward and just reset to try again. This isn't a stellar session, more average-to-bad, but we work through his distraction. One benefit of clicker training is that is it very easy to try out solutions to problems without the risks of fallout from too much pressure or confusion.

 

[Colonel Blimp]

Well done, and have a medal for gallantry in the face of the enemy. ;-)

I clicker train (or used to) but go about it in a very different way than you, so what I saw in the movie doesn't fit my scheme. I never got the majority of trainers in RTF to accept the validity of clicker, so over to you bonnie lass!

Eug

 

[polmaise]

How to make Fido fetch a stick look complicated and confusing . The assistant too !
Since there was only one dog in the room I can't see the requirement for 'Tyler' being said so many times.

 

[kennel maiden]

My thoughts on this session/method would be that the dog got rewarded for dropping the dummy at the 'thrower' and just having a sniff around, as he was allowed to do that, he got praise/play when he came back and when he had finished he just got sent again for the retrieve! Happy days!

Also, it is very boring and repetitive for the dog, so may encourage the dog to become quite 'stale'.

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

Well done, and have a medal for gallantry in the face of the enemy. ;-)

I clicker train (or used to) but go about it in a very different way than you, so what I saw in the movie doesn't fit my scheme. I never got the majority of trainers in RTF to accept the validity of clicker, so over to you bonnie lass!

Eug

Yes a very interesting den full of comments could ensue. I use clicker teaching on my puppies but very different than presented here. Bit confusing as to what you were doing, but... Used Lori Jolly's method of FF, delivery on my 6yo. You might want to have a look at her teaching methods if you are interested in this approach so that you follow a program or sequence. JMO

 

[moscowitz]

How old is Toller? What venue are you training for? What experience do you have in that venue - hunt test, field trial, hunting etc. What titles have you put on your dogs? I hope MH or QAA.

 

[crackerd]

My thoughts on this session/method would be that the dog got rewarded for dropping the dummy at the 'thrower' and just having a sniff around, as he was allowed to do that, he got praise/play when he came back and when he had finished he just got sent again for the retrieve! Happy days!

Also, it is very boring and repetitive for the dog, so may encourage the dog to become quite 'stale'.

L, Eug gave a citation to the OP for "gallantry in the face of the enemy" - alas, another citation is more applicable for many if not most toller handlers. This citation comes from old "Pogo" comic strip, and goes, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Retrieving repetition is actually something a toller "digs" to the point of obsession - when it's retrieving as conducted via tolling. That is, a handler stepping out of a hide (blind) and tossing a stick (or bumper or tennis ball), and the toller going side to side iin pursuit of each throw, with about eight retrieving repetitions per tolling venture. The dog also understands that during a toll, it must get the retrieve object back to the handler ASAP after each throw or it won't get another retrieve, which is what the dog craves in the first place.

So just by having the dog do what it was bred for in the first place, you're almost certain to eliminate any chewing or mouthing the bumper on a return - the clicker may be a mighty fine training device for early advancement, but in the hands of the wrong or wrongheaded people, well...

MG

 

[ErinsEdge]

Why is the dog allowed to jump up and wander off? It looks like rewarding a dog to be naughty.

 

[RaeganW]

Well done, and have a medal for gallantry in the face of the enemy. ;-)

I clicker train (or used to) but go about it in a very different way than you, so what I saw in the movie doesn't fit my scheme. I never got the majority of trainers in RTF to accept the validity of clicker, so over to you bonnie lass!

Eug

Yes a very interesting den full of comments could ensue. I use clicker teaching on my puppies but very different than presented here. Bit confusing as to what you were doing, but... Used Lori Jolly's method of FF, delivery on my 6yo. You might want to have a look at her teaching methods if you are interested in this approach so that you follow a program or sequence. JMO

There's a lot of clicker stuff I do differently (I have been very influenced by Scandinavian clicker training), but I don't think much of that is in this clip. What do you do differently?

 

[RaeganW]

My thoughts on this session/method would be that the dog got rewarded for dropping the dummy at the 'thrower' and just having a sniff around, as he was allowed to do that, he got praise/play when he came back and when he had finished he just got sent again for the retrieve! Happy days!

Also, it is very boring and repetitive for the dog, so may encourage the dog to become quite 'stale'.

Why is the dog allowed to jump up and wander off? It looks like rewarding a dog to be naughty.

I did say it wasn't a particularly great session I could have gone and gotten him. But I'm really just not that worried about it. It will go away - you see it diminish within this session. This dog has a hard time working well without a warmup and I had just pulled him out of a crate after being at work all day. Talking sweetly and touching him isn't as reinforcing as canned dog food, and he's used to no reward-reset as meaning try again. I don't like putting praise and petting contingent on behavior. I like to talk sweetly and touch my dogs because I love them. I think it hurts our relationship to withdraw my affection when he does not perform to standard. Using external rewards is much clearer.

As for getting stale, he does less than a dozen reps in three minutes and is paid well for most of them. What's to get bored with about that? One of the reasons to use food in training is that you can get a lot of repetitions in in a short period of time. Each time you ask the dog to do it again, it's another chance for reward. One of the reasons not to drill when using aversives is because you're effectively punishing the correct response with the threat of correction again. When using aversives, not having to do it again means the dog is safe from correction, and the dog gets the feeling of relief associated with that. When using rewards, repetition means another opportunity for reward, which is itself reinforcing.

 

[bamajeff]

If you've got it all figured out, why are you coming here? Affirmation? People gave you well thought out feedback and you're dismissive. What exactly are you looking for...people to pat you on the back(virtually of course) and tell you what a great job you're doing? If you're happy with the session in the video, then that's all that matters, I guess. He's your dog.

 

[RaeganW]

When clicker training comes up on this forum, people seem to have very little idea how it actually works and is relevant to retriever training. I had a video that I thought people might be interested in seeing.

 

[HPL]

Apparently I have no idea what "clicker" training involves. I thought one used a device that made a clicking sound to reward the dog. I never heard a click and it appeared to me that the dog was receiving some kind of food reward on return. I too was a bit surprised to see the dog jumping on the trainer after the retrieves.

 

[bamajeff]

Maybe us simpletons here can gain a better understanding someday...lol. Just a thought, maybe if you aren't an expert, you shouldn't come here and expound on how much others "don't know". I'm new to the dog world and learning. The last thing I would do is come here and post a video and say "This is how it's done boys and girls" and if anyone disagrees, blame it on their lack of understanding training concepts. SMDH

 

[sandcastles451]

I watched, then got up and went and kissed my labs!

As to clicker, not that I heard it on the video, but to me same as any other consistent marker, properly timed.... good, good girl, anything. Pass wind for all the dog cares. Watch a Hillman puppy video..... "good" and then often a treat. as they learn, wean off treats but still mark desired behavior until conditioned, IMO, never saw a need for a clicker, ineffective beyond several yards. I can yell out a verbal good at distance pretty easily. If someone could tell me how the dog responds better to a clicker than my voice marker, I'd be interested? Then tell me how you transition to an ecollar.

 

[crackerd]

If only the thread header read "What clicker training looks like for flyball/rally/any other non-hunting canine activity" I'm sure everyone would have a better comprehension of how a typical toller is trained with a clicker. Truth is a tough tussle to pin down - maybe not so much in Scandinavia...

MG

 

[Colonel Blimp]

ReaganW

In explaining the differences 'twixt thee and me in clicker teaching / training a gundog, I don't want to be seen as offering criticism, constructive or otherwise; we all do what we do.

I work to a plan; something similar to the Lardy flow chart, but minus the collar aspects and some other stuff I think is a bit weird. Just like other methods of teaching, we need to build up the dogs profile in progressive simple steps. Once a dog has demonstrated he can retrieve and has some desire, that gets left alone and I start with the obedience basics. In your clip there was a lot of what I see as sloppiness in the dogs obedience, and a lack of focus; had someone brought me that dog along, we'd immediately go back a few steps and work on the basics of body positioning and focus on the handler. When I saw it going the right way in the training room or yard, I'd get out into areas with a higher distraction potential and start over, using the principle of making it "easy for the dog to succeed and hard for him to fail."

I don't use my voice other than to give a command; if I had to repeatedly call the dogs name to gain his attention I'd stop the session immediately and have a think.

Unless there is a specific problem with retrieving I don't use clicker at all; the retrieve is it's own reward. As we enter into more advanced work I transition from clicker and institute other reward systems, but a retrieve is the biggie. One exception to that is in teaching casting; sometime a clicker can be a help in the early stages.

I do solemnly swear that this is the very last time I ever post this video of a clicker taught dog transitioning to a new reward system. Note the tight heel and response to changes in the handlers speed and direction, the auto sit and the dogs focus.

Just one point more ... I get the idea you are using the dogs normal kibble / feed as a treat. In my experience that doesn't cut it. I only work on a hungry dog that hasn't been fed for at least six hours, using tiny bits of warm baked liver that the dog perceives as being a much higher reward than a bit of everyday kibble; think of it as canine crack! A hundred bits of kibble must be around a third of a normal meal, so their effect becomes progressively smaller as the session goes on and the subject becomes satiated. A hundred bits of liver can be held on your fingers.

Sandcastle451 asked

If someone could tell me how the dog responds better to a clicker than my voice marker, I'd be interested

It's a matter of precision and consistency. You can use a click to mark very small improvements in body position, a matter of an inch or so in heeling say, and that's impossible to do with your voice. In a single three or four minute session you might give 50 or 80 click/treats in "shaping" a heel and move the dog three inches closer to you. Additionally yelling at the dog has emotional implications; dogs can and do pick up on your mood/attitude from your voice tone; the click is always the same.

Then tell me how you transition to an ecollar.

If you want to do that, do it. Teach the desired behaviour with clicker and go on your way with the collar as reinforcement, they need not be mutually exclusive. (Though I don't do it! )

Eug

 

[moscowitz]

You never answered my question. Please go back and answer it.

 

[kennel maiden]

I'm all for clicker training done well......

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

JMO There is a limit I think to clicker teaching in the world of American FT w/ those distances, concepts etc & w/ some dogs! I do use the clicker to shape early behaviors w/ pups & later having them sit beside me on the bucket for HRC. Longer process. My 6yo is a perfect candidate. IMO