[Pete]

The results of the two together = a more reliable, efficient dog heading into Transition. It's not the the TT dog can now fry an egg sandwich. There aren't, or shouldn't be extra skill sets thrown into land T work. Land T's are basic drills, and rightly so. But Double T is a next logical step toward a fundamentally sound, solidly, but basically trained dog

I think one would be significantly ahead of the game if they introduce other skill sets on the T pattern,, poison bird concept,,,diversion bird concept in particular,,,go as sent,,,,
and I see the same impotent inefficiency with a regular double T as others,, since no one has talked about angled backs to separate piles,,,
I can see a double T important if the 2 apex's are farther apart,,then you can incorporate left and right angle 45 backs,,,,
I also believe many of these drills were designed for people owning only a few dogs.
Pete

 

[Jennifer Henion]

As someone who doesn't use the collar, I'm curious about how collar users correct the dog in this drill. It seems that if you have forced to pile that any collar stimulation during the T would tell the dog to dig in and get to that pile.

If you get a whistle stop refusal or a wrong cast from the center line, what do you do? If you nick or burn, doesn't the dog remember the force to pile and think you're trying to get him to go back?

Is it that you don't use collar correction during T work, you just have to move up and simplify as mentioned earlier?

 

[kip]

I think one would be significantly ahead of the game if they introduce other skill sets on the T pattern,, poison bird concept,,,diversion bird concept in particular,,,go as sent,,,,
and I see the same impotent inefficiency with a regular double T as others,, since no one has talked about angled backs to separate piles,,,
I can see a double T important if the 2 apex's are farther apart,,then you can incorporate left and right angle 45 backs,,,,
I also believe many of these drills were designed for people owning only a few dogs.
Pete

One can open a big can of worms when you start tring to do angled backs while teaching the TT or T. Confussion in this drills can ruin or set a dog back for months.

 

[kip]

As someone who doesn't use the collar, I'm curious about how collar users correct the dog in this drill. It seems that if you have forced to pile that any collar stimulation during the T would tell the dog to dig in and get to that pile.

If you get a whistle stop refusal or a wrong cast from the center line, what do you do? If you nick or burn, doesn't the dog remember the force to pile and think you're trying to get him to go back?

Is it that you don't use collar correction during T work, you just have to move up and simplify as mentioned earlier?

Excellent, you will do well with your attitude, keep it simple.

 

[Steve Shaver]

I do what I call a YT drill after single T. I see no reason to do 2 over piles and do not dwell much on over piles period.I send to angle back piles at the second apex. I like a second apex so that the dog is not stopping at the same place everytime and to me angle backs are much more important than overs. My angle back piles are deeper than the straight back pile. I dont spend much time at all here. It's just to get the dog used to going farther to the back pile and taking cast and stopping on the whistle at a distance.

 

[copterdoc]

.....Is it that you don't use collar correction during T work, you just have to move up and simplify as mentioned earlier?

You have to be very careful about what you are "saying" to the dog with the collar during all of your pile work.
That often means that you don't push the button, even though the dog did something that certainly "deserved it".

And there's LOTS of ways to simplify during the TT.

 

[kip]

why not move on to pattern blinds than hanging on to the TT. My experience has always been all the angles, change of directions and going where sent improve with attrition.

 

[Pete]

One can open a big can of worms when you start tring to do angled backs while teaching the TT or T. Confussion in this drills can ruin or set a dog back for months.

I think any drill someone does incorrectly is capable of that. The drill needs to be broken down first to teach,,,then put together,,,no different than force to pile sit to pile,,,and then the single T. I don't start force to pile with the side piles out. Eliminate confusion,,,and build,,, but not so slow that it negates the drill.
This drill will also make the handler think a little deeper and pay attention to what he is doing and what is going on in the dogs head. Then counter it if need be.
But may be its not good for many,,, may be it is a poor judgement to recommend,,, I don't know,,but I'll do it with every dog that hangs around long enough. I get a lot out of it and it sames me time down the road..

Pete

 

[copterdoc]

why not move on to pattern blinds than hanging on to the TT. My experience has always been all the angles, change of directions and going where sent improve with attrition.

I don't think that a dog learns much about handling, from the TT.
No matter how long you stay on it, or how thorough you are.

But, the TT brings out the dog's natural and often problematic reactions to the stresses, pressures, and situations that WILL occur during pattern blinds, and early cold blinds.

If I can fix them during the TT, I don't need to worry about them when the dog is supposed to be learning how to handle in the field.

 

[kip]

I don't think that a dog learns much about handling, from the TT.
No matter how long you stay on it, or how thorough you are.

But, the TT brings out the dog's natural and often problematic reactions to the stresses, pressures, and situations that WILL occur during pattern blinds, and early cold blinds.

If I can fix them during the TT, I don't need to worry about them when the dog is supposed to be learning how to handle in the field.

Really, he learns to go, stop and cast. the three most important parts to handling. the T or TT is no fun to a dog, i feel the sooner you can move on the better, attitude is everything in a good blind dog,

 

[dexdoolittle]

I agree with Kip and your first statement basically sums it up. We are not teaching handling. You are teaching go, stop, cast. No reason to get bogged down in boredom. Once you feel the dog has grasped what is being asked move on.

Really, he learns to go, stop and cast. the three most important parts to handling. the T or TT is no fun to a dog, i feel the sooner you can move on the better, attitude is everything in a good blind dog,

 

[caryalsobrook]

I don't think that a dog learns much about handling, from the TT.
No matter how long you stay on it, or how thorough you are.

But, the TT brings out the dog's natural and often problematic reactions to the stresses, pressures, and situations that WILL occur during pattern blinds, and early cold blinds.

If I can fix them during the TT, I don't need to worry about them when the dog is supposed to be learning how to handle in the field.

You point out a problem that I have(had) with a young dog. When i started sending her from my side, a terribble avoidence problem was evident. With the key of "dead bird" she would look away or even turn her head sharply in front of me. No correction used on drill was word "no" and sit her at the place where she had made a mistake. She is much better now as she gains confidence. I hope you are right about how she will deal with blinds later as the result of patience here. Thanks.

On a side note, I guess I am too dumb to see where anyone has belittled anyone's training technique. I only see those that truly are trying to contribute to the discussion. It would be nice FOR ONE TIME, to take personal insults SOMEWHERE ELSE, maybe PM"s would be a better place. If you have nothing CONSTRUCTIVE to say, the how about shutting up and let those who enjoy the discussion enjoy it.

 

[copterdoc]

Really, he learns to go, stop and cast. the three most important parts to handling. the T or TT is no fun to a dog, i feel the sooner you can move on the better, attitude is everything in a good blind dog,

He learns to go, stop, and sort of cast.

It's not really casting.
He knows where the piles are, and he is just responding to your indication of which one to go to.

Learning to really take a cast, is on the very limits of a dog's ability to reason.
It's a tough concept for them to grasp.

If you add having to deal with bugging, popping, flaring, and no-going to that lesson, you have made what is already tough, a whole lot tougher.

Obviously, you can simplify, and avoid having that stuff happen.
We all have to simplify sometimes.

But, there is a point that you can't simplify it any simpler.
And, we ALL make mistakes during training.

 

[caryalsobrook]

I agree with Kip and your first statement basically sums it up. We are not teaching handling. You are teaching go, stop, cast. No reason to get bogged down in boredom. Once you feel the dog has grasped what is being asked move on.

I love your last sentence. If I may emphasize slightly. "once YOU FEEL the dog has grasped what YOU are asking then move on." Changed it slightly. Hope you don't mind. When you move on would be a subjective think, don't you agree?

 

[Evan]

I agree with Kip and your first statement basically sums it up. We are not teaching handling. You are teaching go, stop, cast. No reason to get bogged down in boredom. Once you feel the dog has grasped what is being asked move on.

That's really what I was inquiring about earlier. What are your goals for land T work? Based on your objectives, I agree that for you TT is wasted time. But I hope if you can't relate to the way I've stated my case that you'll read copterdoc's posts. He has been right on the money about this.

Evan

 

[kip]

That's really what I was inquiring about earlier. What are your goals for land T work? Based on your objectives, I agree that for you TT is wasted time. But I hope if you can't relate to the way I've stated my case that you'll read copterdoc's posts. He has been right on the money about this.

Evan

my only concern is the average new trainer tring to train their dog. the t is much easier for a dog and a trainer to understand. the TT could and will cause more issues for a dog and trainer to overcome. Dex's record of producing great dogs can not be denied.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

I used to make every dog go through double T work. Over the years i've backed off on that and only do double T with dogs if I believe it will help them with something along the lines of control. Some dogs really don't do well with the constant drilling and it hurts momentum and attitude. I also find that spending too much time making a dog takes overs, detracts from the ultimate goal of turning and heading back. If I have a dog that seems to have problems taking overs then I may do some drills later to help build that skill, however I bought into the thought process that if I have to give big overs, I haven't done my job keeping him online to begin with.

/Paul

 

[kip]

He learns to go, stop, and sort of cast.

It's not really casting.
He knows where the piles are, and he is just responding to your indication of which one to go to.

Learning to really take a cast, is on the very limits of a dog's ability to reason.
It's a tough concept for them to grasp.

If you add having to deal with bugging, popping, flaring, and no-going to that lesson, you have made what is already tough, a whole lot tougher.

Obviously, you can simplify, and avoid having that stuff happen.
We all have to simplify sometimes.

But, there is a point that you can't simplify it any simpler.
And, we ALL make mistakes during training.

so why the TT over the T, all of the above are addressed with less stress on the dog.

 

[dexdoolittle]

I'm not going to go back a re-read every word but I would dis agree. If I remember correctly I asked a simple question. "What single aspect in training is gained in the D TT, that can not be taught or learned in a T". Then you went to making watches and ones end result is good the other being better. I agree with everything that copterdoc has stated. It is just that I feel all these issues are going to irrupt in a single T and will be dealt with there. You can not move on to the TT unless you have taught a dog to deal w the Flares, NO Goes, Popping. So If I have taught him how to deal with these issues in the T, then why do I need to bogg down in the TT. If I have taught a dog to deal with its fears can't I move on to less complicated(mentally) work and get better and bigger results.

That's really what I was inquiring about earlier. What are your goals for land T work? Based on your objectives, I agree that for you TT is wasted time. But I hope if you can't relate to the way I've stated my case that you'll read copterdoc's posts. He has been right on the money about this.

Evan

 

[shawninthesticks]

View attachment 10433 I do what I call a YT drill after single T. I see no reason to do 2 over piles and do not dwell much on over piles period.I send to angle back piles at the second apex. I like a second apex so that the dog is not stopping at the same place everytime and to me angle backs are much more important than overs. My angle back piles are deeper than the straight back pile. I dont spend much time at all here. It's just to get the dog used to going farther to the back pile and taking cast and stopping on the whistle at a distance.

Interesting... drill. ^^^^

Gundog, Although very green in comparison to you ,That is something that always puzzled me...why keep sending the dog 90 degrees over when it is a cast that is seldom used,but with ready this thread it seems that the TT isnt just about casting ,but contol and working out any problems before going to the field.Which also makes since to me.

GD would you incorporate a drill like Steve Shaver describes instead of TT to get both ,turning and heading back (which is what most cast boil down to in the field ) and also the control of teaching over's in the same drill? It seems you could get your go,stop,come (mechanics) and angle casting all in 1 drill.

Interesting thread lots to learn