[Mountain Duck]

Looking for some ideas for marking my 7 month old pup. We are geting ready to start FTP in the yard as soon as the weather cooperates. Looking for some ideas for adding a little structure/purpose to my marking setups. Have been doing my yard work on my lunch break, and trying to work in some marking setups in the evening.

What are some of the first marking concepts you start to teach a young dog? So far most of my concept stuff has been "terrain oriented" Crossing creeks, cover strips, re-entries, etc.......

Almost exclusively training alone right now till the days get a little longer. I have (2) Two shooter bumper boys. Pup is steady and running stand alones out to ~150-200 yards (light cover) with ducks. Running widespread doubles off the BBs as well.

Thanks for any help!

 

[Jennifer Henion]

The X marking drill is a good one. It helps teach depth perception. But you need a person to be your thrower.

Not good at making graphics, but can describe it:

Bird-boy stands in middle of X with 6 white bumpers. You and dog are at line 40 yds back. All are singles. First, BB throws angle back right, 2. throws angle-in left. 3.Angle-back left. 4. Angle-in right. These are all the points of the X. 5. throws straight out to the side left. 6. throw straight to the side right. The dog has to run over previous falls. Once dog is doing well, move to a different spot and increase your distance.

Got this out of Carol Cassity's book Building a Retriever. Great Book.

 

[Mountain Duck]

Thanks Jennifer. That's the kind of drills I was referrring to. Need to get my 7 year old bird girl up to speed quick!

Been meaning to pick up Carol's book, as I have seen many reference it for the type question I asked.

 

[BrettG]

W marking drill. Set up stickmen in W configuration and throw a single from each station.

 

[polmaise]

The X marking drill is a good one. It helps teach depth perception. But you need a person to be your thrower.

Not good at making graphics, but can describe it:

Bird-boy stands in middle of X with 6 white bumpers. You and dog are at line 40 yds back. All are singles. First, BB throws angle back right, 2. throws angle-in left. 3.Angle-back left. 4. Angle-in right. These are all the points of the X. 5. throws straight out to the side left. 6. throw straight to the side right. The dog has to run over previous falls. Once dog is doing well, move to a different spot and increase your distance.

Got this out of Carol Cassity's book Building a Retriever. Great Book.

Non argumentative!!
What if this 7 month old pup gets the 5th and 6th one wrong?...Does ''Carol'' expand on this ? (never read the book sorry, not available here) Just curious? what the handler/trainer would do ,if it doesn't go to plan?

 

[Jennifer Henion]

Non argumentative!!
What if this 7 month old pup gets the 5th and 6th one wrong?...Does ''Carol'' expand on this ? (never read the book sorry, not available here) Just curious? what the handler/trainer would do ,if it doesn't go to plan?

Yep, she says to try these fixes if your dog is having trouble:

1.Bird boy helps with a verbal "hey hey"

2.Make sure you're in very light cover (golf course grass or eaten down cow pasture)

3.Throw big white bumpers for visibility

4.Practice more with Angle-in (throwing angle toward line) to teach dog to "check-up" on marks.

This one's mine: shorten distance of dog from thrower.

 

[polmaise]

Yep, she says to try these fixes if your dog is having trouble:

1.Bird boy helps with a verbal "hey hey"

2.Make sure you're in very light cover (golf course grass or eaten down cow pasture)

3.Throw big white bumpers for visibility

4.Practice more with Angle-in (throwing angle toward line) to teach dog to "check-up" on marks.

This one's mine: shorten distance of dog from thrower.

Thanks Jenifer, forgive me! what is ''check-up'' on marks?

 

[copterdoc]

Thanks Jenifer, forgive me! what is ''check-up'' on marks?

The opposite of running right over them, and hunting deep of the fall.

 

[polmaise]

The opposite of running right over them, and hunting deep of the fall.

Confused!?, hence the question.
Are you saying, 'The opposite of running right over them (marks) previously? ' , ie 'check up' on the previous ?would be to 'check up' on a previous mark?
Sorry if this has been covered before in other threads!...maybe just a transatlantic issue , and I apologise if it is sidetracking the Original posters question.
..
My lack of understanding may be due to the fact that (over here) we (I) teach the young pup at 7 months old 'Blind retrieves' before we master any complicated X/Y/Z drill on marks.
So it is not so much ,like the OP has said, preparation of 'Force to Pile', more 'Get to the pile' over here. Where my question arises, in the further quest' to understand/relate to you guy's and the way you train your dogs.
Good Topic for me, as The American retrievers are renowned for their marking ability.
....
Sorry to labour the point!...Just don't understand?....Alway's difficult through text! *

 

[copterdoc]

Confused!?, hence the question.
Are you saying, 'The opposite of running right over them (marks) previously? ' , ie 'check up' on the previous ?would be to 'check up' on a previous mark?

No, you don't want the dog to check up on a previous mark. That would be called switching falls, or returning to an old fall. That's bad.

If you throw a lot of birds "flat" or 90 deg from the bird boy, and a lot of throws "angle back", or 45 deg back from the bird boy, the dog will develop a tendency to drive even with, or slightly past the bird boy before "checking down" and establishing a hunt.

This results in over-running marks, and hunting deep of where the bird fell.

By throwing lots of angle-in marks, the dog will learn to "check down" as it gets close to the bird boy, and instead of over-running the fall, and heading over the horizon, will have a better chance of digging out the bird.

Of course, if you overdo it, the dog will start hunting short. So, you need to strike a balance, and maintain it as best you can.
And it's a really bad idea to run marks into the wind. Especially with a young dog.

 

[KwickLabs]

Thanks Jenifer, forgive me! what is ''check-up'' on marks?

Some call them check-down marks. Which means the dog needs to NOT go long again (check-up). Using short cover and white bumpers is effective for initial exposure. Marks 2 and 4 are check-down singles.

This is a good time to introduce the "easy" cue which is a little more difficult to do when your dog's name is Daisy.

 

[polmaise]

And it's a really bad idea to run marks into the wind. Especially with a young dog.

Whey hey!!! Thanks ,You are probably the only guy that (I) have come across (this side) that advocates that as (I) Do!
You may remember ''Wind what a load of baloney''?

 

[Mountain Duck]

Good stuff! Obviously a real life bird boy would be best, but I'm guessing I could run the X-Box drill with my two bumper boys set up bi-directional? Just wouldn't have a helper or extra bumper if he needed help.

 

[polmaise]

Some call them check-down marks. Which means the dog needs to NOT go long again (check-up). Using short cover and white bumpers is effective for initial exposure. Marks 2 and 4 are check-down singles.

This is a good time to introduce the "easy" cue which is a little more difficult to do when your dog's name is Daisy.

Alot harder when your dog's name is 'Hardy' when the 'Hard' cue is introduced.
Similar drill over here, but no 'Bird boy' at 7 month old pup!...Finding the dog learns to much too soon?...unless you are training for that of course.

 

[copterdoc]

Whey hey!!! Thanks ,You are probably the only guy that (I) have come across (this side) that advocates that as (I) Do!
You may remember ''Wind what a load of baloney''?

I can't think of an example, where I'll use the wind to help the dog succeed.

If I just want to cancel it out, I'll put it at my back. Whether it's on marks, or on blinds.

If I want to use the wind, it'll be to add more difficulty. Not to reward the dog for doing the wrong thing.

 

[polmaise]

I can't think of an example, where I'll use the wind to help the dog succeed.

If I just want to cancel it out, I'll put it at my back. Whether it's on marks, or on blinds.

If I want to use the wind, it'll be to add more difficulty. Not to reward the dog for doing the wrong thing.

That will do for me!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jZ6MZcHp10

 

[cakaiser]

Good stuff! Obviously a real life bird boy would be best, but I'm guessing I could run the X-Box drill with my two bumper boys set up bi-directional? Just wouldn't have a helper or extra bumper if he needed help.

I don't think that is a good thing to do with a pup. It's more for an older dog, that has issues running tight to guns/fall areas. You don't want to possibly get the pup to think, ok to go back to old fall. Fall areas, at that age, should be not tight, and distinct area for each one..
Drills like that, big white bumper, on mowed grass, don't really teach a dog to mark. Only real marks, in the field, do that.

So, take your bumper boys to the field, and set up stickmen with them. Set up concept doubles, then run as singles. You can do long/short, for check down, or short/long, for run past old fall, don't go back.
Continue using terrain, hills, ditches, wind, angling cover strips, etc. Singles off multiple guns, is the way to go. Even better if you can set up 3 marks.

Throws should be as long, flat, as possible. You want the pup to focus, watch the throw for as long as possible. Angled in/ straight back, don't allow for this. Get the bumper as far from gun as you can.
.Short throws encourage dog not to mark, just run at the gun.Teach check downs, etc, by how you set up the marks, not by the throw.

If you like big, white bumpers in a mowed field, ok, fun for you, and the dog..But, not going to really teach much of anything. IMO
Unless you have a dog with little drive, needs momentum. Then, like to do that kind of thing. Depends.

 

[polmaise]

What about 'Line up drills' with the handler?..Do you guy's do this when teaching/learning a pup of 7 months on ''Marks''?

 

[polmaise]

I can't think of an example, where I'll use the wind to help the dog succeed.

If I just want to cancel it out, I'll put it at my back. Whether it's on marks, or on blinds.

If I want to use the wind, it'll be to add more difficulty. Not to reward the dog for doing the wrong thing.

My reply 'copterdoc', was a BIG http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ca ching
Also the BIG main difference between these Atlantic waters ,on early conditioning/training/mindset ,where the dog is trusting the training as opposed to the Trainer trusting the dog in the UK programmes?..Which also has lead some over here,to dis-trust the programmes over there.
All starting from the early basic 'Mark'!!!

 

[Sabireley]

There is a club somewhat near you that you might consider joining.
There may be some other people near you in NC as well. It is more fun to train with other people and easier to help the dog progress.

http://www.netnrc.com/