[copterdoc]

I have a Pro-500xl and a Field 90 G3. The Pro-500 medium, is about the same as the Field-90.
But, the Field 90 is a hair hotter. Could just be that it's the G3.

I should also add that a continuous low 1 from the 500xl, is definitely less aversive than a continuous 1 from the Field 90.

 

[John Lash]

Does the 90 have levels 1-6 or 1-5?

I remember that TT added a level 6 and saying that 6 wasn't hotter than 5. They had added a lower level at the lower end.

 

[copterdoc]

Does the 90 have levels 1-6 or 1-5?

I remember that TT added a level 6 and saying that 6 wasn't hotter than 5. They had added a lower level at the lower end.

Both the 500xl and the Field 90 G3 have a 6 level dial.

The lowest low on the 500, is significantly lower than the lowest you can go with the Field 90.
But, I wouldn't say that a High 6 isn't as "hot" as a level 6 on the Field 90.

At the same dial setting the "tics" do seem to hit harder with the Field 90. But, they aren't even close to the frequency they are when you hit both buttons simultaneously with the 500.

The best way I could describe it, is that a 2M with the 500, is almost exactly like a 1 on the Field 90.
And at the top of the scale, a 6M on the 500 isn't as hot as a 6 is on the Field 90. But, a 6H from the 500, is at least as aversive as a 6 from the 90.

 

[shawninthesticks]

Does the 90 have levels 1-6 or 1-5?

I remember that TT added a level 6 and saying that 6 wasn't hotter than 5. They had added a lower level at the lower end.

1-6 ,with 2 buttons, nick,continues. In my stage of training I think it is best for me to not have many split second decisions on what buttons to hit.As stated previously ,I know what number my dog is so the only decision to be made is nick or burn.

 

[Hoytman]

What do I do then if my dog generally operates on a 3H and I get in a situation where the dog may need a bit more "persuasion"? Are you saying I forego the 4L and go to a 4M? Seems to me that require's too much thought when all I need to do is turn the dial a notch and hit the low buttion. Also, it sounds if all levels would have to operate this way...and it simply isn't the way my collar is. I'm not arguing, rather, telling you what I know my collar does. I guess mines and odd ball.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

if your go to level is a 3 high, it is what you and your dog like, use a 4 setting and the low medium and high of 4 will start off a bit below your high 3 and end up a bit above.

 

[John Robinson]

What do I do then if my dog generally operates on a 3H and I get in a situation where the dog may need a bit more "persuasion"? Are you saying I forego the 4L and go to a 4M? Seems to me that require's too much thought when all I need to do is turn the dial a notch and hit the low buttion.

You should be set up generally at the low end of the number. If after experimenting you find that your dog just twitches his head on a four low, I would just set it on four. That gives you lots of higher options above the low nick, to a low continuous, medium and high. I have had my Pro 500 for almost 15 years, and four dogs, I honestly have never once changed the number level on each dog once I figured out what that number was. That is the way the collar was designed to work.

 

[copterdoc]

What do I do then if my dog generally operates on a 3H and I get in a situation where the dog may need a bit more "persuasion"?.....

Dogs don't work that way.

There is a level, at which the collar is aversive enough to influence behavior, when the dog is in a calm state of mind. That level, is a number on the dial.
There is another level, above that, where the collar is so aversive, that it makes the dog quit thinking, and panic.

There is a pretty wide range, between those two levels. For most dogs.

The low, med, and high buttons, usually fall well within that range.
Regardless of how great the distracting influence is, that may require you to exceed what is normally the minimum required to get through to your dog.

 

[Hoytman]

What do I do then if my dog generally operates on a 3H and I get in a situation where the dog may need a bit more "persuasion"? Are you saying I forego the 4L and go to a 4M? Seems to me that require's too much thought when all I need to do is turn the dial a notch and hit the low buttion. Also, it sounds if all levels would have to operate this way...and it simply isn't the way my collar is. I'm not arguing, rather, telling you what I know my collar does. I guess mines and odd ball.

This was a hypothetical situation and Ken's reply illustrates my point precisely, as does the quote below. Bare with me a segundo...

I went back and checked again... 4 low weaker than 3 high, 3 low weaker than 2 high, 2 low weaker than 1 high.... Significantly.

We are being told that Mr. Davis's collar is reading that, "4 low weaker than 3 high, 3 low weaker than 2 high, 2 low weaker than 1 high...."

The reading are what they are, either by a test light, and/or a meter. Nothing I can do to change something he says is showing up as a fact.

Okay...so bare with me.

If my hypothetical 3H scenario is changed and the dog actualy works on a 3M level (#3, top button)...whatever number level its on...it doesn't matter the number level, just the top button on any number level. If I needed to go from that number level and medium and increase up 2 levels, where would I be on the collar according to Mr. Davis's findings? According to what I know that my collar does, two notches up would automatically be the 4l setting. However, according to Mr. Davis's findings I would only have moved up one stimulation level because the 3H is supposedly hotter than the 4l setting. So, according to what some of you are saying I would end up going from a 3M (where this dog works) to 3h...skip 4low because it's less intense than a 3h...and for two steps higher to be completed end up at a 4M. That virtually eliminates a low setting being used on any number if you started on a Medium number level.

It might look confusing to read, and it may even sound confusing when you read it out loud...but it is not confusing when you throw away the meters for pro 500xls's, place that collar in your hand, start at 1l,1m,1h, 2l, 2m, 2h, 3l, 3m, 3h, etc.

If your pro 500 is different, then it's different and I can accept that, but once again I know by feel what mine does.

I have been to 3 Smartwork seminars and watched Mr. Graham cc to "here" numerous dogs. I've done this very same thing on 4 dogs myself. All have been working up the scale in a 1l, 1m, 1h, 2l, 2m, 2h, 3l, 3m, etc., and back down in a similar fashion. Obvious reactions can be observed with virtually all but the lowest of stimulations. These reactions mimick my own finding placing the collar in my hand.

Not one single time have I ever heard Mr. Graham ever explain, at any (3)seminar(s) or in any of his videos, that I can recall, that I must bounce back and forth on a pro 500 when progressing up the scale. Not once. It was a sequintial and logical progression, just as it was on my hand, 1L, 1M, 1H, 2L, 2M, 2H, 3L, 3M, 3H, 4L, 4M, 4H, etc. If I have misrepresented what he taught me, then I owe him a public apology., as well as to all of you.

I write none of this with a tone to be demeaning to anyone, rather, stressing what I've learned and what I've felt on my own hand and leg. Make fun of that if you wish. It's your call.

I can't and won't sit here and say that Mr. Davis's findings are false according to the test light, and/or a meter. That only leaves trying the collar on ones self. I'm not asking anyone to do what I did by trying the collar on themselves. However, I don't need any sort of meter for "my" collar. I found out for myself. If none of you are willing to do the same it is fine with me.

 

[SjSmith]

Hoytman, FWIW, I agree with you as long as the continuous mode is used. In momentary, a HIGH nick feels worse to me than a LOW nick at the next higher dial setting. Probably due to the longer duration.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Hoyt..... the "CC" part of dog training last maybe 9 days (I use the Lardy way not Evan... but not that many ways to shock your dog)........ but after CC, once you go up and down like you say and find the working level of a dog. That is purty much it. On my TT 500 I set the dial to 2 for Scooby Do, my old psyco rescue chessie but could correct him with the tone button, he has some issues. And when I put the same collar on Loco my young Chessie I set the dial to 5, but he eats yellow jackets and flosses with barbed wire for fun. Both dogs are happy.
It is good you are shocking yourself. We all should feel the thump we give.
But for real, just pick a level. in that level you got low med and high.
to ease your mind maybe send in your collar to colar clinic or TT for a check up.
but I say pick a level and light um up!!!!!

 

[huntinman]

Maybe it's just me. But has dog training always been this damn complicated?

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Maybe it's just me. But has dog training always been this damn complicated?

For some, probably, if they choose to make it that way!

 

[Don Lietzau]

Quote."Maybe it's just me. But has dog training always been this damn complicated? "

Nope.......in the old days you just shot um in the ars with a load of 6's and if they yelped you were right on.......

I love the collar and I think you guys are over thinking it. Just try this..... use the button with the smallest number that gets you the results you want or need at the moment. Just my opinion. Don

 

[John Robinson]

Hoyt, I may be wrong, but I think the Tritronics collar is set up way different than you think it is, I believe it is close to a logrithmic scale such as the following. Rather than using volts or amps, I'll make up a unit called a "Yikes". Say a tenth of a Yike doesn't even register on a sleeping Chihuahua and a 100 electrcutes a raging Grizzly, here's how the collar is set up:

#1 Low = four tenths a Yike; Medium + four Yikes: and High = 40 Yikes
#2 Low = .5 Yikes; Medium = 5 Yikes and High = 50 Yikes
#3 Low = .6 Yikes; Medium = 6 Yikes and High = 60 Yikes
#4 Low = .7 Yikes; Medium = 7 Yikes and High = 70 Yikes
#5 Low = .8 Yikes; Medium = 8 Yikes and High = 80 Yikes
#6 Low = .9 Yikes; Medium = 9 Yikes and High = 90 Yikes

Though I exaggerated the scale, this is the way it seems to work in real life to me, a high on any level seems to be a much greater degree of burn than simply turning up a number. I hope this helps,

John

 

[Evan]

I have been to 3 Smartwork seminars and watched Mr. Graham cc to "here" numerous dogs. I've done this very same thing on 4 dogs myself. All have been working up the scale in a 1l, 1m, 1h, 2l, 2m, 2h, 3l, 3m, etc., and back down in a similar fashion. Obvious reactions can be observed with virtually all but the lowest of stimulations. These reactions mimick my own finding placing the collar in my hand.

Not one single time have I ever heard Mr. Graham ever explain, at any (3)seminar(s) or in any of his videos, that I can recall, that I must bounce back and forth on a pro 500 when progressing up the scale. Not once. It was a sequintial and logical progression, just as it was on my hand, 1L, 1M, 1H, 2L, 2M, 2H, 3L, 3M, 3H, 4L, 4M, 4H, etc. If I have misrepresented what he taught me, then I owe him a public apology., as well as to all of you.

Bill,

I'm in Jupiter, Florida this week so I'm iphoning it here. I'm having a little difficulty getting a clear picture of the conflict in this discussion. But one thing that doesn't seem clear. As we reach threshold during pressure conditioning, we switch to nicks AND work back down the scale of intensity levels 2 levels at a time - ultimately out of pressure altogether. The process is not entirely "low, medium, high" each level up and down scale, nor is it all continuous or all nicks. I hope this helps.

Evan

 

[Hoytman]

Scale goes from #1L #1M #1H #2L #2M #2H #3L #3M #3H and so on.

From post #2 and I agreed the scale was as listed above.

I believe that is incorrect. My recollection is that a 2 high is higher than a 3 low; & is the same for all levels

mjh is saying that a 2 high is hotter than a 3 low. I disagreed.

It may show that on a meter, but this is not how I approach using the collar. My experience placing the collar in my hand, using what I feel, matches the logical progression of the numbers...L1, M1, H1, L2, M2, H2,L3, M3...threshold and then back down two levels at a time.

You can't tell this isn't correct by using my collar in my own hand. I think (from the pain I experienced) that this is correct. I made it to about 3M nick and about a 2 low constant...well until I let go that is. LOL! ...
Perhaps others have been told that a 2 high is higher than a 3 lower, but you couldn't tell it from placing it on my leg. LOL!

I went back and checked again... 4 low weaker than 3 high, 3 low weaker than 2 high, 2 low weaker than 1 high.... Significantly.

This by mjh, "2 high is hotter than a 3 low" , and this by huntinman, "4 low weaker than 3 high" = saying the same thing only in a different way, and both would screw up the Smartwork scale of progression to cc to the "here" command.

Bill,

I'm in Jupiter, Florida this week so I'm iphoning it here. I'm having a little difficulty getting a clear picture of the conflict in this discussion. But one thing that doesn't seem clear. As we reach threshold during pressure conditioning, we switch to nicks AND work back down the scale of intensity levels 2 levels at a time - ultimately out of pressure altogether. The process is not entirely "low, medium, high" each level up and down scale, nor is it all continuous or all nicks. I hope this helps.

Evan

Evan,
In one of my former posts in this thread it's quite possible I wrote one thing and meant another. I know that in my last post I said I went down as I did up...that was simply not writing what I was thinking.

I got out my Smartwork Obedience dvd and I indeed have cc to "here" the exact same way as you did with that young lady in the video. I get out of the session by scaling down 2 levels at a time. It would proceed like this: "My experience placing the collar in my hand, using what I feel, matches the logical progression of the numbers...L1, M1, H1, L2, M2, H2,L3, M3...threshold and then back down two levels at a time"...finishing with 3 good dogs...minus the bumper on the head. LOL!


There are two things being discussed here about Pro500 collars;
1) Levels of progression in HOTNESS as in L1, M1, H1, so on, and so forth, up to a H6. I subsribe to these levels of HOTNESS because I "feel" them this way.

2) High levels of a given number...example a H4 (the #4 with both buttons depressed) being HOTTER than Low levels of the next higher number, example; a 5Low (the #5 with only the bottom button being depressed). A 5Low does NOT "feel" less hot than a 4High...if "feels" HOTTER in my hands. Of course, those levels are only examples because I can't take those numbers in continuous mode. The examples seemingly "feel"/progress in the same manner if I'm using nicks on my hand.

Does that make sense, Evan?

Evan said, "The process is not entirely "low, medium, high" each level up and down scale, nor is it all continuous or all nicks. I hope this helps."

The way this is written confuses me. If it correlates with what is in the Obedience dvd on that "one" dog, and is done the same way for each future dog, though the threshold levels may be higher or lower, then we're on the same page.

I disagreed with two guys saying the same thing in different ways. Both are saying that a given #H(both buttons) is HOTTER than the same given #Low(one...bottom button).

That's as clear as I can describe it. All I know is that what I see in Evan's video is extremely easy and requires no thought for me since the first dog, and is exactly how I do it.

It would make no sense to go up the scale such as L1, L2,...and then since these guys are saying that a H2 is hotter than a L3...that I'd have to skip the H2 and go to the L3. That skips an entire series of buttons...bottom button for low on a# level, top button for medium and the same # level, and then just skip both buttons depressed for the high on that same# level because it's HOTTER than the next higher #low. That's simply rediculous!

 

[Hoytman]

Ken,
My deceased dogs working level was on level two, low. This gave me two levels of increase in hottness if I needed it. I understand setting the collar at the dogs working level and leaving it alone. I am simply talking about the progression of hottness while cc to "here" according to how it feels to my hand, and is perfectly described and shown in Evan's Obedience dvd. If you agree with that, then we're on the same page.

None of this is personal.

Later...

 

[blake_mhoona]

Don't over analyze this.

The only scale you need to think about, is the dial. That's what you set to match the dog.

Which button you push, depends on the circumstance.
If you can't keep from over-thinking this, you are better off with just one button to choose from.

amen.

set it on 2. medium for cast refusal. high for shopping/over run on the return etc

if he's really not getting the picture or i can tell its just one of those days then start at 3 and use med and burn (using a flyway so ive got the red button which seems to be between med-high) and just press it for a tenth of a second

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Ken,
My deceased dogs working level was on level two, low. This gave me two levels of increase in hottness if I needed it. I understand setting the collar at the dogs working level and leaving it alone. I am simply talking about the progression of hottness while cc to "here" according to how it feels to my hand, and is perfectly described and shown in Evan's Obedience dvd. If you agree with that, then we're on the same page.

None of this is personal.

Later...

Hoyt,
None of this is personal. I am actually happy because it has triggered a great memory of a Great Man. Jim Greene. He and I trained dogs, hunted and scampered at hunt tests together. He was the Dad of a childhood friend. He died duck hunting with his Flat Coated Retriever. Back, way back. in 2000 he and I each purchased E-collars. I still right now am using that same Tri-Tonics 500. So because of this I am remembering the afternoon at Jim's kitchen table with our brand new fully charged collars. He chose Dogtra and Flat Coated I chose Tri-Tonics and Chesapeake's. As we ran through the levels on ourselves Jim's wife Kay was certain we were both insane and there was no hope for us.
Anyway, I do not know what you are feeling in your hand. Here is what I know. Every TT collar I have ever shocked myself with. It is an embarrassingly large number BTW. Dating back to my mentors and first Chessie breeders collars that you put plug of a different color. Every one the levels overlap. I say again, for your own peace of mind. Send in your collar for a check up. Have you ever shocked yourself with anyone else's collar? Could any of us place our collars on you? Kidding!!!
Also, and not dissin Evan. As I scent him the note saying he should drop into this thread. A fun and inexpensive addition to your video library would be the stand alone collar conditioning dvd by total retriever. The brown Mike Lardy link at top of this page. It is worth the view and you can easily sell it here on the classified page after. Or maybe even buy one there. As I was told, Read / View everything you can get your hands on and take everything with a grain of salt.