[paul young]

The dogs use their tail as a rudder when swimming. So, at least in theory, a thicker tail, heavier at the base, adds stability and strength to the "rudder". And yeah, I know all the thinner tailed dogs can swim...but we'll never know if they'd be better with the otter tail.

I have one with NO tail. Doesn't make a damn bit of difference as far as working in the water goes. However, she's not very pleasing to look at.-Paul

 

[Sharon Potter]

I have one with NO tail. Doesn't make a damn bit of difference as far as working in the water goes. However, she's not very pleasing to look at.-Paul

Of course they can swim just fine without a tail. But if they have one, they do utilize it to some extent.

 

[HNTFSH]

Bree is 60 pounds, Ziva is 55 soaking wet. Coal is 75 and Siggy is about 85-90. No fat on my three in real life. Siggy has extra weight on him when showing I assume. I never saw him in show weight. My Coal is going strong at nine and runs like a bat out of hell. The reason he doesn't have is MH is I'm an inept handler and I won't let anyone else compete with him. And I travel extensively for work.

None of mine have overdone bone or coat. They don't have TONS of bone and aren't dripping in coat as the fashion can be. I can actually lift my dogs up myself. So, I guess that's why I call them moderate. They just look a little different than yours. Maybe a little more than yours but less than current show fashion. They are sturdy.

Can they do FT? Probably not. Can they go out and hunt, probably so. they certainly can mark, remember and use their noses. My pups are exposed and worked with as soon as possible. I really enjoy preserving a good looking dog that can hunt.

My good looking is different than yours. That's fine. No one is better. Me saying the field lines are hyper, hounds greyhoundish dogs is like someone saying that all show labs are pigadors. It's just not true.

In my perfect world, we would each appreciate the pluses and minuses of all and acknowledge that none are perfect. I certainly appreciated the working ability of field dogs. It's stunning to watch. We certainly need to do a better job learning from each other across the board. With type, working ability, training, advances in health and reproduction. We need to understand that in all venues, the training, time and money spent is extensive. One venue doesn't corner the market on that.

Anyway....I guess I'm usually in dream land. I'm looking forward to my litter of black puppies out of a yellow bitch and chocolate sire. Ill have pups carrying all three colors. I hope my second CH/MH is in there! And I hope the kids getting puppies out of this litter enjoy them, for 15+ years!

Sue Puff

Sue - I'd have a hard time believing the legs on any of those dog could carry an upland longer than 90 minutes. There's a market for what you breed, I get it. But I don't honestly believe a JH, SH, or even in many cases a MH title mean much as far as the quality and athleticism of a Lab. I've seen dogs WALK and get a senior pass. And 'probably' can't compete in Field Trials is more likely 'definitely' can't compete. And you don't expose them to actual hunting which is quite different than a 'test'.

All that aside - I would not buy your breeding for a hunting dog. Nor would I recommend anyone else to.

Whether I'd suggest it for a show dog that can pick up a duck - maybe, don't know enough about the show side. I'm hoping that is your audience though.

I really don't buy for looks, I buy for pedigree. Working pedigree.

 

[suepuff]

Ah well. We both enjoy our dogs and they enjoy what they do. I appreciate them all. And thankfully, mine don't walk to get their titles.

Sue Puff

 

[HNTFSH]

What about this dog? Moderate?

 

[luvalab]

I am absolutely convinced that Dickendall Arnold, while certainly not the beginning of the breed split, was the reason the breed split became acceptable--because so many breed dogs that have the heart and birdiness to work seem to have Dickendall Arnold in their lines, and the show folk say "My dog hunts/loves to hunt/can hunt/will hunt/trains to hunt" and, even though the dog is overdone to crispiness, the dog hunts/loves to hunt/can hunt/will hunt/trains to hunt, whatever.

All the pictures of him he seems to be a powerful-looking dog, definitely showy, but when young definitely also athletic (and when middle-aged and old, fat but happy). His progeny and progeny's progeny, to me, look like caricatures, and it bothers me to no end because they are probably not as capable as their desires could accommodate, but they do seem to carry the heart and birdiness as much as or more than the show look.

I'd be super-curious to hear others' observations about Dickendall Arnold and show/working outcomes.

I don't know. To each his own. I've come to think that the best-looking Lab in the whole world is mine.

Which reminds me, Al--I'm going to e-mail you right now about the picture of Atticus jumping over the hay bale!

 

[HNTFSH]

Which reminds me, Al--I'm going to e-mail you right now about the picture of Atticus jumping over the hay bale!

This one?

 

[luvalab]

This one?

That's the one.

 

[Jennifer Henion]

This one?

Now THAT'S an otter tail !!!

 

[wheelhorse]

I'd have a hard time believing the legs on any of those dog could carry an upland longer than 90 minutes.

I have a completely show bred Lab that was a SAR dog for 11 of his 13 years. Some, but not all, of his accomplishments in that world include 7 days in New Orleans after Katrina/Rita working 8 hours a day, climbing pile after incredibly high and unstable rubble, spent a week in the Amazon (Guyana, South America) looking for a missing airplane, and many multiple day searches in the Blue Ridge Mountains. At 13 he has slowed significantly, but is not on anything for arthritis and still likes to do the occasional task and pick up the occasional bird. In his prime he would have run circles around the dog I bought because of her working pedigree.

I admire the overwhelming desire of the field lab but I have an incredibly hard time looking at the pure field breed Labs no matter their working ability. To turn your words around: All that aside - I would not buy your breeding for a hunting dog. Nor would I recommend anyone else to.

It seems like every 3-4 months we go through this topic, and we won't change anyone's mind. But, there are those of us that don't want or need a dog that can run 400 yd multiple marks and 250 yard blinds because we don't see the purpose of it in real life. And there are others that think that is everything and loaf of bread.

We all love to work our dogs and that is all that should matter.

Finn at 12:

 

[MikeBoley]

Bree is 60 pounds, Ziva is 55 soaking wet. Coal is 75 and Siggy is about 85-90. No fat on my three in real life. Siggy has extra weight on him when showing I assume. I never saw him in show weight. My Coal is going strong at nine and runs like a bat out of hell. The reason he doesn't have is MH is I'm an inept handler and I won't let anyone else compete with him. And I travel extensively for work.

None of mine have overdone bone or coat. They don't have TONS of bone and aren't dripping in coat as the fashion can be. I can actually lift my dogs up myself. So, I guess that's why I call them moderate. They just look a little different than yours. Maybe a little more than yours but less than current show fashion. They are sturdy.

Can they do FT? Probably not. Can they go out and hunt, probably so. they certainly can mark, remember and use their noses. My pups are exposed and worked with as soon as possible. I really enjoy preserving a good looking dog that can hunt.

My good looking is different than yours. That's fine. No one is better. Me saying the field lines are hyper, hounds greyhoundish dogs is like someone saying that all show labs are pigadors. It's just not true.

In my perfect world, we would each appreciate the pluses and minuses of all and acknowledge that none are perfect. I certainly appreciated the working ability of field dogs. It's stunning to watch. We certainly need to do a better job learning from each other across the board. With type, working ability, training, advances in health and reproduction. We need to understand that in all venues, the training, time and money spent is extensive. One venue doesn't corner the market on that.

Anyway....I guess I'm usually in dream land. I'm looking forward to my litter of black puppies out of a yellow bitch and chocolate sire. Ill have pups carrying all three colors. I hope my second CH/MH is in there! And I hope the kids getting puppies out of this litter enjoy them, for 15+ years!

Sue Puff

If the current bench standard is "so correct" then why do you take a dog in working shape and have to fatten them up for the ring. Unacceptable. A bench dog in "show shape" has a hard time trotting around the ring, now way could they perform even the easiest of hunts. So explane why you have to fatten your dogs up to show them. Cant be healthy for the dog. Borders on abuse.

 

[suepuff]

If the current bench standard is "so correct" then why do you take a dog in working shape and have to fatten them up for the ring. Unacceptable. A bench dog in "show shape" has a hard time trotting around the ring, now way could they perform even the easiest of hunts. So explane why you have to fatten your dogs up to show them. Cant be healthy for the dog. Borders on abuse.

I don't and i never said it was perfect. you know...the field side did have as much input into the standard many years ago when it was developed.....back in the beginning. Why they put weight on is ego....they want to win. Shame on the judges that put them up. It's politics. Why do many field lines not look at elbows? Watching some of those guys walk around when they are older borders on abuse. In FT game is their not politics and dogs put up that shouldn't be? There are in HT.

Both of those main statements are generalized statement about a whole population. Of which can't be done. And generally does the population a disservice.

Oh well...off to enjoy my weekend with the dogs, friends and family. I know better then to get involved in this topic, but I just hate it when people lump things into big categories. Trying to make others appreciate differences never work.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend!

Sue Puff

 

[HNTFSH]

I have a completely show bred Lab that was a SAR dog for 11 of his 13 years. Some, but not all, of his accomplishments in that world include 7 days in New Orleans after Katrina/Rita working 8 hours a day, climbing pile after incredibly high and unstable rubble, spent a week in the Amazon (Guyana, South America) looking for a missing airplane, and many multiple day searches in the Blue Ridge Mountains. At 13 he has slowed significantly, but is not on anything for arthritis and still likes to do the occasional task and pick up the occasional bird. In his prime he would have run circles around the dog I bought because of her working pedigree.

I admire the overwhelming desire of the field lab but I have an incredibly hard time looking at the pure field breed Labs no matter their working ability. To turn your words around: All that aside - I would not buy your breeding for a hunting dog. Nor would I recommend anyone else to.

It seems like every 3-4 months we go through this topic, and we won't change anyone's mind. But, there are those of us that don't want or need a dog that can run 400 yd multiple marks and 250 yard blinds because we don't see the purpose of it in real life. And there are others that think that is everything and loaf of bread.

We all love to work our dogs and that is all that should matter.

Finn sounds like a nice dog. Hopefully you passed some of that genetic/trait ability down a line with the like?

The breeders I'd admire the most are those that do seek that next DC. Its been 30 years. Previous pic of Banjo from 1941 demonstrates a well framed dog built for the work and someone felt the physical characteristics met the breed criteria.

BUT - those breeders seem few and far between in the field and show world. I never see a strong field line breeder suggest the pups will be 'show worthy' but often see show line breeders suggest their pups are most 'field worthy'.

So to my comment above of 'would/would not' recommend (Sue aside, speaking of any line) what line would it make sense to drive a hunter or hunt tester toward? A 5 generation pedigree of field accomplishment or a 5 generation pedigree of show accomplishments with a sprinkling of HT titles? Especially laden with Junior ribbons? Where does the probability lie for the inherent drive and capability to train a great field dog?

Nor am I offended my dog would be laughed at in a ring. That ain't what I bought him for.

I realize this topic gets old and repeated. If anything should demonstrate as has been said - the separation is well made. If someone had the secret sauce for that next Labrador DC I'm guessing the Retriever world would be in humble awe. Till then - be nice if people sold what they have for what it is, compared to what's available - and the buyer market clearly understood the difference.

And like most breedings it's buyer beware cause in both field and show lines (call it structure) - there are infinitely more folks than those here on RTF that will sell the uninformed a pile of BS to move that puppy.

 

[Bridget Bodine]

Hntfsh Curious if you think this dog could hunt? 3/4 show bred , a tad bit overweight here.

 

[HNTFSH]

Hntfsh Curious if you think this dog could hunt? 3/4 show bred , a tad bit overweight here. View attachment 13315

Bridget - I can't tell if a dog 'hunts' by a picture. Then comes the question of hunt what and how long. Then the perseverance factor. Finally, the probabilities of how genetically predisposed a dog might be based on its ancestry. Needless to say two pics of dogs like in stature may have completely opposite dispositions.

And you do mean hunt right? Not just test?

Go ahead and fill me in on this dog.

 

[Bridget Bodine]

Bridget - I can't tell if a dog 'hunts' by a picture. Then comes the question of hunt what and how long. Then the perseverance factor. Finally, the probabilities of how genetically predisposed a dog might be based on its ancestry. Needless to say two pics of dogs like in stature may have completely opposite dispositions.

And you do mean hunt right? Not just test?

Go ahead and fill me in on this dog.

Bolded added by me This is exactly my point , thank you!!! I just thought that your comment about Sue Puff's dogs was a little out of line for this exact reason.
But yes Albert can hunt, all day, in weather, breaking ice when the Bennellis froze up

 

[2tall]

Me, I don't know if that dog could hunt or not. But it just does not appeal to me. I particularly dislike this kind of "stretched" show stance. Reminds me of horses that are shown like this, say Saddlebreds and Arabs, to cover myriad fault in the running gear. With that said, if it's what you like, go for it! I like to see the ones like mine, that's why I chose them. Now when a breeder of either type comes up with the sure fire way to prevent all Ortho problems and illnesses, I'd go for that! Otherwise I think it is folly to pursue a one size fits all DC.

 

[Bridget Bodine]

Albert's father OP , ( my dog can jump higher than your dog, na, na, na , na)

 

[HNTFSH]

Bolded added by me This is exactly my point , thank you!!! I just thought that your comment about Sue Puff's dogs was a little out of line for this exact reason.
But yes Albert can hunt, all day, in weather, breaking ice when the Bennellis froze up
View attachment 13316 View attachment 13317

Bridget - you're so tricky. But I looked at Sue's pedigrees and based my comments on that, along with the structure of the dogs, even commenting on running a field all day long in the uplands. Nor does Sue hunt her dogs so what basis would I have to recommend her line?

This isn't about SUE. She likely breeds very nice, healthy dogs. However, the structure, pedigree and accomplishments don't spell Field dog. And my dog doesn't spell show dog. So AGAIN - should I make a recommendation to a fella looking for a field/test dog - it wouldn't be toward that end of the choices.

It's only when you can become objective the conversations have much merit. I am not offended I can't enter a show ring. Nor am I offended my last dog wasn't field trial material. Ya'll shouldn't be offended your lines fit a purpose, but not mine or others.

So would ole Banjo here win a show today? May or may not win a field trial. guessing not considering the competition today.

 

[Bridget Bodine]

Carol , absolutely to each their own! I have a Grady son, who has a head like a flat coat, that I absolutely adore!!! Please show me a picture of your dog standing that you prefer.