[badbullgator]

Some very good points have been made... As Bill stated the AKC is the 900 pound gorilla in the room...

However, if these dog games were a business (some would argue they are) it just seems like there is an opportunity to take some market share from the industry leader....

some say that the clubs are at capacity. These same clubs are complaining that their members can't enter their own events......
If the goal is to run your dog there is an option.....

If the goal is a title that shows on an AKC pedigree there is an option for that as well...

Daimler and Benz invented the automobile.....Henry Ford figured out a way to make it available to the masses.....Detroit went into bankruptcy.......

i don't have any skin in this game but the problem with GunDog tests is a good one........

Randy

It is a business, but the heart of the business is run by volunteers. Profit is motivation and club profit is not individual profit. If someone could figure out how to hold test and personally make money the vacuum would fill, but most people who run clubs are not interested in filling the void by donating there time anymore than they already do.

The heart of the matter is AKC and MN are successful beyond their highest expectations. The funny thing is AKC could care less about HT. The reason AKC test are filing is because of the MN. That is what the majority of the people entering the filled limited test are interested in. They just don't care about the other venues. HRC and NHRA don't offer an event that MOST retriever enthusiast are interested in. That is not to say that either of them are bad, just that the gorilla has the lions share of participants. They are not interested in just running test, they want to run test to qualify for a greater event the others can't offer.
I have run the Grand and loved it. I would do it again, but given the choice of MN and the Grand I will take the MN.

 

[Madluke]

I'm a hunt test die hard with a passion for NAHRA, an affinity for AKC and aspirations for field trials one day.

Point taken and I'd add that AKC , HRC , NAHRA and Field Trials all have positives with many great hunting dogs running in each affiliation. I think they all give out ribbons.

 

[Kelly Greenwood]

I have noticed that AKC has been copying HRC of late. This isn't a bad thing, actually rather smart. We now have requirements in AKC that judges actually have to run and qualify dogs to maintain judge status. AKC also now has a Higher title than just MH that is attained at a National event like HRC. AKC now has extended the recommended max distance to match HRC. Now if AKC would just get the MN club to hold 2 events a year that would help a lot especially if they are on opposite coasts.

AKC and HRC are different and one can be harder or easier depending on the dog and handler and region.
As an example my dog has never failed a Nahra test, Failed 1 Master, and 3 HRC Finished.

There is a HRC club in AK Interior Alaska HRC http://www.iagda.org/ Fairbanks AK.

They are all just different games we play with our dogs. They show us things about ourselves and our dogs, They bring us together with other people and give us a chance to help newbies and learn more from more experienced people. I like all the venues and play them all (haven't been to a SRS event yet but want to). I would like to see more of all events.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Really, since it seems to be a grounds issue or a personnel issue, why would HRC or NAHRA clubs be able to magically find these resources in the same places where Akc clubs can't?

while it is hard to tell, at times if you are trying to be argumentative or flippant or seriously seeking info. I let this slide. But it has gnawed on me so while it may be a waste of my typing time I will go for it.
Seeing I am a member of a club that puts on both and I have been the test chairperson for our NAHRA field tests more than a few times and been on the test committee for the AKC hunt more than a few times.
I can sit down at my kitchen table on a Sunday afternoon with a telephone and a blank yellow pad of paper. And in about 3 hours have everything in place for a NAHRA Field test. I can call 1 landowner friend and have room for the test. Get my judges, most of that 3 hours is chat time. Then the next morning, (Monday) call or email Rosemary and make sure my judges are legal and my committee members dues are paid up. Order my outhouses and birds and lunches. Email my premium to club member Mel for an legal eye proof read so folks don't catch on how stupid I can be and then have lunch.... POOF... A test is in the books!!
Now on the other hand it takes a group of 5ish at a kitchen table with phones and legal pads at least 2 Sundays Just to agree on and then contact and then make sure they are legal AKC judges. Even then they may not be able to make it. Then the more complicated land requirements. See that pesky land / water combo can be a bitch to find if you do not want to settle for a hay field with a wide, sloppy ditch in it. Some of the land owners we use require a personal visit. Like Bovine's Gully at Goodrich corner you all know and love to crash and burn in. That requires a drive down and chat with Mark and Paul and at least an hour of your life just to get a piece of paper signed. That you know they will sign anyway but gosh they love to bitch about the State.
Everything is so much bigger and harder to deal with. Thinking about how you are going to get 75 pick up trucks off of a dirt road and into a bean field 'cause it may rain and the county has a new deputy sheriff with a stick up his pooper about the "traveled portion of the road" are things that will make you pull your hair out.
it is like the difference between tossing together a weekend super bowl party and it's snacks and guests vs. the time you planned your wedding and dealt with all the guests and who sits next to who and locations and food and yada yada yada!!!!

 

[Margo Ellis]

Ken you really have it figured out. We are some what lucky in that the club owns the grounds we just need to find judges, workers and such.

 

[Keith Stroyan]

Like Ken I have done this many times for NAHRA and HRC. Our club has been affiliated with all three at various times and I have worked all but one AKC/HT, but not organized them. Our AKC tests have been small and we were not Master National members until now. (We'll see what happens in May...)

In the last few years we've had land problems and weather problems and membership problems. We're not sure what's happening with members, but Iowa's pheasant hunting is all but gone (due to the weather the last few years), so that may be a contributing factor.

I dropped out last year because of the resulting overload, but our last NAHRA test was a kind I really would have enjoyed had I only been a participant.
https://www.facebook.com/easterniow.../photos/a.332112206819462.81849.324108310953185/473462689351079/?type=1&theater
About a dozen hunters who train their own dogs getting together on a September weekend before hunting seasons to test their summer preparations. We had beautiful weather, good judges, good grounds. Small events can be fine. So can big ones, but then you REALLY have to share the work.

 

[badbullgator]

while it is hard to tell, at times if you are trying to be argumentative or flippant or seriously seeking info. I let this slide. But it has gnawed on me so while it may be a waste of my typing time I will go for it.
Seeing I am a member of a club that puts on both and I have been the test chairperson for our NAHRA field tests more than a few times and been on the test committee for the AKC hunt more than a few times.
I can sit down at my kitchen table on a Sunday afternoon with a telephone and a blank yellow pad of paper. And in about 3 hours have everything in place for a NAHRA Field test. I can call 1 landowner friend and have room for the test. Get my judges, most of that 3 hours is chat time. Then the next morning, (Monday) call or email Rosemary and make sure my judges are legal and my committee members dues are paid up. Order my outhouses and birds and lunches. Email my premium to club member Mel for an legal eye proof read so folks don't catch on how stupid I can be and then have lunch.... POOF... A test is in the books!!
Now on the other hand it takes a group of 5ish at a kitchen table with phones and legal pads at least 2 Sundays Just to agree on and then contact and then make sure they are legal AKC judges. Even then they may not be able to make it. Then the more complicated land requirements. See that pesky land / water combo can be a bitch to find if you do not want to settle for a hay field with a wide, sloppy ditch in it. Some of the land owners we use require a personal visit. Like Bovine's Gully at Goodrich corner you all know and love to crash and burn in. That requires a drive down and chat with Mark and Paul and at least an hour of your life just to get a piece of paper signed. That you know they will sign anyway but gosh they love to bitch about the State.
Everything is so much bigger and harder to deal with. Thinking about how you are going to get 75 pick up trucks off of a dirt road and into a bean field 'cause it may rain and the county has a new deputy sheriff with a stick up his pooper about the "traveled portion of the road" are things that will make you pull your hair out.
it is like the difference between tossing together a weekend super bowl party and it's snacks and guests vs. the time you planned your wedding and dealt with all the guests and who sits next to who and locations and food and yada yada yada!!!!

So Ken, just curious about your numbers with NHRA? Have you held 120-160 (whatever the highest level is similar to MH) dog fields with multiple flights? How deep is the judging pool? I think those are the questions associated with HRC or NHRA filling a void. Small test regardless of venue are fairly easy, easy being relative of course.
I am not knocking NHAR or anything, in fact I am looking forward to seeing it very soon (can't be soon enough, I am long done with this thing you guys call winter). Just saying planing a small event is not apples to apples with a large event.

 

[Keith Stroyan]

Hot Rods

NHRA

National Hotrod Asso

 

[SamLab1]

MN and getting qualifications are the main factor to large/limited AKC tests but people switching to AKC from HRC is also a large factor. In the last 2 years I have seen a large number of previously HRC only pros at MN and the weekend tests.

In Texas I know of 3 HRC tests that were cancel this spring due to lack of participation and one that was held with a total of 22 dogs. Whatever the problems going on with HRC, whether political, lack of challenge, titles, clubs not able to make money because of HRC charges, Grand judging or whatever, I hope they fix their issues. Everyone going to one venue is hurting all 3.

 

[badbullgator]

NHRA

National Hotrod Asso

That is actually what I think of first.....
just sayin

 

[Kelly Greenwood]

Ken, I agree with what you are saying. Out here we don't have to worry about land and have the same AKC judge problems you do, but those are not that hard to deal with, we have been paying attention to what judges are current if we don't know we can use entry express and the AKC website to get pretty much all the judge info we need. A quick phone call can is required sometimes.
Probably the biggest hassle now is HRC trying to get judges approved takes an act of congress. I asked for a copy of a policy from HRC and out rep 3 months before the hunt as it affected our judging pool. Finally got it 3 days after the hunt after threatening a class action lawsuit just to get the info from them. When we first started HRC 3 years ago they were very helpful and they had a secretary we could call and was very helpful and would call back and help you or just check up on you. Well they got rid of her and now it is a fight ever single test and getting to the point that I think just holding AKC tests is really the way to go. If HRC doesn't get their act together this next hunt will be my last one, which is too bad because I really like the hunts and my dog really really likes them.

 

[gdgnyc]

badbullgator

"... but given the choice of MN and the Grand I will take the MN."

Why?

 

[badbullgator]

badbullgator

"... but given the choice of MN and the Grand I will take the MN."

Why?

More difficult to get there and an AKC title

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

So Ken, just curious about your numbers with NHRA? Have you held 120-160 (whatever the highest level is similar to MH) dog fields with multiple flights?

started, hunter and intermediate all under same judges not more than 15 dogs each day.
senior alone not more than 15 dogs each day, if a one day senior. we feel, in senior, 15 is all a set of judges can do in a one day test. but as you know. no matter the venue, give two judges 11 hours of daylight and they will use it

 

[Troy Tilleraas]

badbullgator Yes more non hunters play AKC than the others two venues, but many more of us are bird hunters. NONE of the venues come close to putting on a real days hunt, nor is anyone better for hunters than the other.[/QUOTE]

Been affiliated with both NAHRA and AKC for a few years and still judge both.

NAHRA has used of 300 decoys in a spread, used electronic calls, used multiple boats for both stations and handlers-yes even moved the boat from starting point to the point of origin. Used an upland hunt in a brace and wildly flushed pheasants,quail, or other species listed in the premium. NAHRA has also used live birds released that ( wait)...... the dog had to trail! A walkup, honor, triple land,triple water, quarter with steady to flush, remote, water and a land blind one incorporated with marks, trail, and other things a judge may want to see.

Now in the AKC events we stand upright next to our doggy (drop our hand-optional, never have figured this out for a hunting dog) release fido to pick up the triples. We do (AKC) however have that infamous land/water combo I have run out of a boat 2x by the same judge a few years apart, but the boat was on the land, dog didn't have to even reenter after its return. Upland- I been told go ahead-it will be your last time judging akc... (Guess they dont upland hunt?) Trail???

Now I'll give AKC that you do have to pick up more marks, and run at least 1 more blind to qualify. But at this whole time you are teaching control and the dog is by your side. PERIOD! The most freedom the dog gets is the walkup!

Now try running an upland into a triple land series, or a trail into your marks.


Yes you can do these things in NAHRA with the smaller # of entrants, but dont say they are not close to days hunt.

I guess you can argue the point that in NAHRA the handler can talk quietly to your dog, ; ) I guess I do that from time to time while hunting--regards. looking forward to running HRC this summer!

 

[DoubleHaul]

I started with NAHRA back in the mid 90s. I certainly think both do have an opportunity. NAHRA, in particular, though has some bad history behind it that probably still touches nerves of some clubs--it got ugly.

 

[huntinman]

I started with NAHRA back in the mid 90s. I certainly think both do have an opportunity. NAHRA, in particular, though has some bad history behind it that probably still touches nerves of some clubs--it got ugly.

That stuff is such ancient history as not really even merit discussion in today's game. IMO

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

More difficult to get there and an AKC title

Debatable! IMO! Have to get the popcorn out! Two sides of that discussion.

 

[Lonnie Spann]

It's not a "grounds" issue. The bottom line is that the AKC is the 2 Ton Gorilla in the room. Breeders want the AKC titles. (Whether they mean anything more or less than the other HT titles or not). Once the AKC jumped into the HT game, it was just a matter of time before NAHRA suffered (don't know enough about HRC to comment, haven't been around it).
AKC doesn't recognize NAHRA or HRC titles. So many folks who have to choose one over the other choose AKC.

So, it's a demand issue. You can only realistically have so many dogs at a test on a given day... This has been discussed ad nauseum... They can fix it if they want to. Anything can be done if the WILL is there.

Bill,

I have some up-and-coming young dogs that will hopefully be running Finished in HRC this Fall. I will be runing a few HT in Tennessee. You are more than welcome to come out and join us for some fun. Bring your dog or dogs or just run one of mine. I promise you'll have fun and I will even post play by play posts here on RTF!

Lonnie Spann

 

[huntinman]

Bill,

I have some up-and-coming young dogs that will hopefully be running Finished in HRC this Fall. I will be runing a few HT in Tennessee. You are more than welcome to come out and join us for some fun. Bring your dog or dogs or just run one of mine. I promise you'll have fun and I will even post play by play posts here on RTF!

Lonnie Spann

Thanks Lonnie, it all sounds great. The only thing that worries me just a smidge is the part I bolded;-)

Still recovering from reading your story on the training session with your grandson!