[Dwestall]

You could care less, but what about your dog? Dogs treat flyers differently. What about getting dogs ready for hunting season? I train FOR hunting season, not during it.

Well then you better get real gun and shoot it because I've never hunted with a group of guys where I sat 100 yards away and watched the fellas have all the fun shooting the birds. I hunt because I like hunting, I hunt birds because I like the teamwork between me and my dog. I'd spend most of my time big game hunting if didn't. My 2 year old dog got more exposure to shot birds in one week of his first dove season than he will get in a lifetime of hunt tests. That being said......if you train for hunting I've never seen an akc test that remotely resembled an actual hunt......I've at least seen a few hrc tests that were in the ballpark. Ive got a lot more of my limited experience in tests in hrc though. Having someone 100 yards away from me shoot a bird with a dog at my side doesn't resemble any of the multiple hundreds of days I've spent hunting though. I like both venues and a shot flyer the dog loves but he loves running around the park too. What I like is paying my money and getting to run the whole test whether I passed or not. I much prefer that to one shot flyer and being sent home after the first series.

 

[jhnnythndr]

You can't really fall back on realism as your argument when shooting off caps while a cold wet unshot duck is beinf catapulted into the field for your dog is the paradigm your dealing with. As long as its not real- and the dog is there for the birds not the gun.... And I'm with her... We will go where the warm juicy ones are.

 

[Dwestall]

That was my point neither one is real. If you just want to shoot warm bleeding birds, save your hunt test money and buy 15 birds and shoot them yourself. We run the games for fun and to test how we have done teaching our dogs the concepts of hunting and retrieving. I think hrc does that better on the first part anyway....ymmv. I still run both because I like doing it but actual hunting still tells me more about where my dog is than either venue.

 

[22899]

These threads always seem toend up this way about Flyers, vs gassed birds, real guns Vs sticks....gets old!

But,,

I will say this:

One venue states "Marking is of primary importance"... the other venues rule book doesnt say that.

Their tests ,,(the one whose philosophy is that Marking is of primary importance,)tend to be more conceptual in nature, and test trained responses in the upper levels. While you can handle, most know the magic number allowed..

The other venue, that doesn't state in its rule that Marking is of primary importance, evaluates Retrievers on qualities desirable in a Hunting Retriever...
I believe their tests tend to be less conceptual in nature,, and focus more on a evaluating a dog to be a desirable hunting companion..
Their rule book states that judges should score a dog lower on poor marking REPEATED handling on marks,.Leaving the hunt area, disturbing to much cover.. They score the dog LOWER!! Poor Marking in and of itself,(unless the dog Fails to find the bird, throwing an object to help the dog find a bird, or excessive (Subjective) handling), isnt a reason to fail the dog. It can contribute to the overall evaluation of that retriever,, but at the end of the day that venues Judges are instructed to ask themselves if "they would Hunt with this dog" they look at the overall picture.. It can tend to be very subjective..

In my opinion,, two very different philosophy..

Both great organizations,,and Both fun to run..with good people to be around..


these threads always end up focusing on the birds.... gassed vs live flying vs dead flying,, but really,, when most of us attend club training days,, how many of those days are spent throwing Plastic??

 

[jhnnythndr]

Response to #83

So if I read that right you just said "if you want live fliers don't run tests"????

Well. I hunt to hunt, I test to test. I train because that's what you do if you like hunting and testing.

I see no reason why we should automatically be allowed to ADVANCE if we failed to EARN a PASS at a TEST.


So- with the original topic in mind- ie how to help HRC numbers- is your position that NOT shooting fliers is the answer- or part of it? I see a few people who have said they would like to see it- and I see a few others who have seen an done way more than me who are saying "when we have seen it done, it was favorably recieved."

If there was an HRC test in my town- ie 10 minutes away- that couldn't legally shoot a flier I would definitely go. If it was 15 minutes away- where the flier wouldn't be a problem- I'd blow it off.

 

[Dwestall]

Response to #83

So if I read that right you just said "if you want live fliers don't run tests"????

Well. I hunt to hunt, I test to test. I train because that's what you do if you like hunting and testing.

I see no reason why we should automatically be allowed to ADVANCE if we failed to EARN a PASS at a TEST.


So- with the original topic in mind- ie how to help HRC numbers- is your position that NOT shooting fliers is the answer- or part of it? I see a few people who have said they would like to see it- and I see a few others who have seen an done way more than me who are saying "when we have seen it done, it was favorably recieved."

If there was an HRC test in my town- ie 10 minutes away- that couldn't legally shoot a flier I would definitely go. If it was 15 minutes away- where the flier wouldn't be a problem- I'd blow it off.

I have no idea how to attract more to hrc. All I'm saying is flyer or no flyer doesn't make a whit of difference to me.

 

[Dwayne Padgett]

You can't really fall back on realism as your argument when shooting off caps while a cold wet unshot duck is beinf catapulted into the field for your dog is the paradigm your dealing with. As long as its not real- and the dog is there for the birds not the gun.... And I'm with her... We will go where the warm juicy ones are.

You get ONE flyer what about the other cold wet unshot ones ? That's the dumbest argument I've heard yet.

 

[jhnnythndr]

well... on the bright side we won't ever have to discuss it face to face, at one of your HRC events, so your exposure to the argument and its foolishness will be low.


I'm no HRC member, and certainly have no drum to beat about how or why yall should conduct your tests- and I certainly can appreciate tradition and being reticent about going against it. I have no idea who, if anyone, HRC is trying to draw, who the core constituency is or anything else regarding demographics, all I am sure of at this point is that it isn't me.


so to the couple people who would like to see increased particpation at HRC events, who are you trying to bring out?

 

[fishduck]

As far as who HRC is trying to attract. The answer is in the motto "by hunters, for hunters".

In many areas HRC is experiencing the same problem as AKC. If you procrastinate the upper level is full & you can't get in to run the test. In both venues some areas have lightly attended tests. As a community we should try to attend these low entry tests because we all lose when a club folds.

 

[Jeffrey Towler]

After this weekend this is what I think.
HRC needs to get back to the grass roots of their slogan "Conceived by Hunters For hunters". It seems that the amateur gets judged harder than the pro!! I say this as a Pro. And the standard isn't the standard that it was 5 years ago. I will say this that with the reputation that HRC is getting on the east coast or mid atlantic region it will be next to impossible to have a Successful HRC event. The key to success is interested members and entries. If the intreset in HRC goes down because the test are impossible to pass with and average dog then we have lost all hope in getting an established hunt test in the state of Virginia. We already have 3 clubs in a two hour window that struggle with entries. You know maybe judging with a slightly less sharp pencil wouldn't be a bad thing. Our Started and Seasoned flights were perfect had a few fail but there was no doubt. Our Finished has a pass rate of 9% on Sunday. Now were the dogs that bad or were the judges that tough or Maybe the 10 dogs that entered weren't ready even tough (6 were MH or had MH passes).

So basically if we weed out the amateur and make it an unpleasurable experience why in the world would he or she pay 130 for entries plus give up a weekend and pay 200+ for expenses.

Right on, could not agree more.
JT

 

[Todd Caswell]

Right on, could not agree more.
JT

With what part? Hopefully not the part about a slightly less sharp pencil and handing out ribbons to undeserving average dogs, just to keep the numbers up and folks interested.

 

[Rob A]

I am new to the game. I ran at East Carolina and then Mid Atlantic to pick up 4 started passes for my dog. This thread is the first I heard of Hunt Secretary. It certainly fills in the gaps on a lot of tests I didn't know about.

Enjoyed the events - I like the duck calls and Camo. I'm not one to wear camo out to dinner Saturday night, but I think its fitting for the event.

 

[wsumner]

EE and Hunt Secretary are companies that provide an entry service. If you ar looking for HRC HTs you should go to http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/entry_form_premiums_for_test_hunt.shtml
All HRC premium must be approved before publicatiion. Once approved they are listed on this web page. The premiums will direct you to EE, Hunt Secretary or to mail in a paper entry. HTs with paper entry only will not show up on either EE or Hunt Secretary. EE and Hunt Secretary are fine services. But the club's HT secretary ends up doing all the walk ups, so all the work is incomplete and has to be finished by the club secretary. Unless we close entries or fill flights I don't see any need to use either. Please take the $4.50 you save on each entry and spend it on the club raffle or donate it to the tailgate jug.

 

[Todd Caswell]

EE and Hunt Secretary are companies that provide an entry service. If you ar looking for HRC HTs you should go to http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/entry_form_premiums_for_test_hunt.shtml
All HRC premium must be approved before publicatiion. Once approved they are listed on this web page. The premiums will direct you to EE, Hunt Secretary or to mail in a paper entry. HTs with paper entry only will not show up on either EE or Hunt Secretary. EE and Hunt Secretary are fine services. But the club's HT secretary ends up doing all the walk ups, so all the work is incomplete and has to be finished by the club secretary. Unless we close entries or fill flights I don't see any need to use either. Please take the $4.50 you save on each entry and spend it on the club raffle or donate it to the tailgate jug.

What about a printed catalog?

 

[Jeffrey Towler]

With what part? Hopefully not the part about a slightly less sharp pencil and handing out ribbons to undeserving average dogs, just to keep the numbers up and folks interested.

My dog fell off a water stand because the stand was unstable. I had my foot on it, till I had to turn 180 degrees to shoot last bird. Stand rocked, she fell off. She got right back up on stand, I sent her, she picked up all three birds and blind, turned to judges and said well? They said she was out cause she broke . If my dog is doing poorly, I am the harshest critic around. I have decided from now on to just run AKC. I fail AKC, I am ok with that. My issue with HRC, Am I being judged to a Grand standard or a Finished standard at a weekend test? By the way Two judges happened to be running that weekend with me, both there dogs did the same as mine. They also were failed. One was from Canada the other from MI. Boy were they pissed, I don't blame them.

As far as giving pro's a break, I have had pro's tell me that to my face. No, I am not going to say who said that too me. I have also seen pro's tossed for no good reason. Example heavy set pro, sat on elevated platform with dog at water test, she turned and knocked dog off stand with her butt. They failed dog for breaking.

I used to have a blast at HRC, actually wanted to become a judge. My Waylon is out of Ron Anderson's Grand dog Bossman that just passed. I still love the people in HRC at local level. I think a Grand dog is a great dog. I will continue to pay my dues. I just am not going to waste a weekend that I can work at the proving grounds, to run a finished test, that I don't know if I am being judged to a grand standard or a finished standard.

JT

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Beer would be nice at the events!!!

No beer? Count bubba and I out

/Paul

 

[Todd Caswell]

My dog fell off a water stand because the stand was unstable. I had my foot on it, till I had to turn 180 degrees to shoot last bird. Stand rocked, she fell off. She got right back up on stand, I sent her, she picked up all three birds and blind, turned to judges and said well? They said she was out cause she broke . If my dog is doing poorly, I am the harshest critic around. I have decided from now on to just run AKC. I fail AKC, I am ok with that. My issue with HRC, Am I being judged to a Grand standard or a Finished standard at a weekend test? By the way Two judges happened to be running that weekend with me, both there dogs did the same as mine. They also were failed. One was from Canada the other from MI. Boy were they pissed, I don't blame them.

As far as giving pro's a break, I have had pro's tell me that to my face. No, I am not going to say who said that too me. I have also seen pro's tossed for no good reason. Example heavy set pro, sat on elevated platform with dog at water test, she turned and knocked dog off stand with her butt. They failed dog for breaking.

I used to have a blast at HRC, actually wanted to become a judge. My Waylon is out of Ron Anderson's Grand dog Bossman that just passed. I still love the people in HRC at local level. I think a Grand dog is a great dog. I will continue to pay my dues. I just am not going to waste a weekend that I can work at the proving grounds, to run a finished test, that I don't know if I am being judged to a grand standard or a finished standard.

JT

I completely agree with your statement, and if that was the case them a little common scence should have come into play. I don't judge HT but I do judge trials and from what I have seen with some HRC tests is that judges may really try to setup something that resembles a actual hunt but at the same time they loose sight in the fact that there really there to judge dogs and not to try and set up a perfect mock hunt..

 

[Todd Caswell]

No beer? Count bubba and I out

/Paul

They got some crazy rule that says you can't have a beer untill the last dog has run. The BEER DOG

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

So standing at the line pointing a stick is better ? I could careless about a flyer. My dogs get that during hunting season.

In 20 years, god knows how many dogs, only had one dog break on a dead bird, and that was because of the live flapping hen pheasant shot 20 feet in front of him. Flyers are crack to an addict. Hrc judges the handler stricter than the dog. So while you are boasting about your dog, just remember, he's the best in the lowest testing ability for a dog

/Paul

 

[paul young]

We drink plenty of beer; just not until the guns are put away. Seems like common sense. At least that was what my dad taught me, and Boy, did he love a cold beer!-Paul