[Waterdogs]

I have spent some time at a southern buffet and yes I have seen some with too much bottom.

 

[Criquetpas]

This issue has been beaten to death. I did post a one liner of semantics issues. I don't get involved in debates on the forum, so will give the OP my opinion, then back out. I have stated before, have not brought a dog along as a hunt test dog, but, have run field trial trained dogs in hunt tests since the 1980's. In the past 7 or 8 years started judging hunt tests at the Master level plus a few seniors and juniors. What I have noticed, hunt test dogs can't compete at the field trial level, even though nice dogs, because the bottom has been taken out of them at a early age. By the time they are three years old, Master level or HRCH level dogs for the most part start to break down on marks many times at about 100 to 150 yards. I have trained with a number of these dogs, who might have been trial dogs be completely put in hunting modes by constant handling, cookie cutter tests, and general breakdowns. Handling is encouraged to get their passes and it is very hacky at best. Moving on, "bottom" is mostly a field trial term that dogs with great bottom have the ability to run 200, 300, 400 yards plus with swims of the same length. Conditioning to these great lengths is done and the lack of bottom dogs are quickly discovered. Now enter marking , many young dogs have a sacacity from the line to break through cover,carry natural straight lines to a point and look like they have great bottom, but, mostly are very good marking dogs with a lot of "drive" or "speed" or "style", will they have the hunt test vernacular of "perserverance" later on who knows, that's the hunt test word for bottom. Do they need the "bottom" for hunt tests venues, me thinks not, do you want to keep the bottom for these same Master or HRCH dogs if you choose to make them QAA dogs, absolutely . So that's my two cents on bottom and to quote a Forest Gumpism, that's all I have to say on the subject.

 

[Patti Benton]

Otey - We have a 50 lb pocket rocket.we can through marks and do drills all day long(not literally) and Penny will get home rest for a little bit and want more. She will finally settle for the night at about 9, but come 6 a.m. she wants to go again.

 

[DSemple]

Otey - We have a 50 lb pocket rocket.we can through marks and do drills all day long(not literally) and Penny will get home rest for a little bit and want more. She will finally settle for the night at about 9, but come 6 a.m. she wants to go again.

Yes you can have to much bottom.

Wonderful from a training perspective, but it can become unmanageable in trial situations. Field trialers call them high maintenance dogs. I've trained with and seen a lot of the greats, and I had a bitch that could do it all with the best of them but she would invariably break on the honor when she was out in front.


Don

 

[A team]

This issue has been beaten to death. I did post a one liner of semantics issues. I don't get involved in debates on the forum, so will give the OP my opinion, then back out. I have stated before, have not brought a dog along as a hunt test dog, but, have run field trial trained dogs in hunt tests since the 1980's. In the past 7 or 8 years started judging hunt tests at the Master level plus a few seniors and juniors. What I have noticed, hunt test dogs can't compete at the field trial level, even though nice dogs, because the bottom has been taken out of them at a early age. By the time they are three years old, Master level or HRCH level dogs for the most part start to break down on marks many times at about 100 to 150 yards. I have trained with a number of these dogs, who might have been trial dogs be completely put in hunting modes by constant handling, cookie cutter tests, and general breakdowns. Handling is encouraged to get their passes and it is very hacky at best. Moving on, "bottom" is mostly a field trial term that dogs with great bottom have the ability to run 200, 300, 400 yards plus with swims of the same length. Conditioning to these great lengths is done and the lack of bottom dogs are quickly discovered. Now enter marking , many young dogs have a sacacity from the line to break through cover,carry natural straight lines to a point and look like they have great bottom, but, mostly are very good marking dogs with a lot of "drive" or "speed" or "style", will they have the hunt test vernacular of "perserverance" later on who knows, that's the hunt test word for bottom. Do they need the "bottom" for hunt tests venues, me thinks not, do you want to keep the bottom for these same Master or HRCH dogs if you choose to make them QAA dogs, absolutely . So that's my two cents on bottom and to quote a Forest Gumpism, that's all I have to say on the subject.

Agree 100%, had this same conversation with a small training group yesterday, I don't believe I articualted it as well as you just did.

 

[Dave Plesko]

His marking is very good and his weak point is honoring... any suggestions?

Work on honoring?

Don't let the fact that he is precocious cause you to rush thru or be less thorough in his fundamentals.

 

[Sundown49 aka Otey B]

Thanks to all who responded. To me this pup is like an uncut diamond. Cut the right way ...priceless. Cut wrong way ...worthless. I guess I am just worrying too
much. I have been breeding for 23 years and this is THE pup I was always aiming for. Just have to do MY job and read him like the open book he is...Thanks.

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

This thread seems to be confusing bottom; a dogs ability to handle pressure and recover. (Takes a licking keeps on ticking) With drive a dogs desire to retrieve. Go go go. Not sure a dog can have to much bottom but a dog can have to much drive to overrun his brain. A truly great dog is balanced, this is what we strive for in training.

 

[James Seibel]

can a dog have to much bottom - I would say yes they can depending on who you are and how much you train or hunt. But I would say NO if you expected to run a dog week after week in field trials till the dog is of old age . Or you hunted ducks 6 days a week on the Rivers , Bays or any of those places waterfowl go.

I owned some of the greatest Ruffed Grouse dogs that every ran the face of the earth . They were hunted 6 days a week and for anywhere a hour to 8 hours a day. Those dogs I kept and hunted had great bottom. Two of those GSP were hunted till they were 14 years old . Go's without saying the pointers I owned could run all day every day as well . If you are a weekend warrior and only can hunt 30 min or couple hours one day a week . Many of these dogs I owed would be difficult for any one to hunt and would not have been for you.

Bottom to my understanding is same as indorence with few other great things mixed in . Great bottom Has nothing to do with speed or desire though that can be included in animal with lots of bottom.

I race pigeons from 100 through 500 miles . First race 130 then 175 , 286 , 500 , back to 130 , 234 , 286 then either a 400 or 500 maybe a 600 miller . Add the millage up . My birds raced around 2500 plus race miles a season , every Sat , back to back . Up to 5 years old they were raced. I expected them to have lots of bottom or else they would not be in my lofts. In Holland I think some of those birds race 8000km a season . Speed is needed but super intelligence is high on the list as well .

My duck and goose dog or River dogs were hunted 6 days a week and for their life . My retrieves had lots of bottom . Though I never shot the amount of ducks you read stories about my retrieves still hunted harsh conditions and ruff places like the Susguehanna River. it is no play ground. I would think serious duck hunters need a dog with lots of bottom .

Has nothing to do with taking pressure as far as training or collar . But I would guess the dogs with great bottom can deal with most any thing .

end of story .

 

[truthseeker]

can a dog have to much bottom - I would say yes they can depending on who you are and how much you train or hunt. But I would say NO if you expected to run a dog week after week in field trials till the dog is of old age . Or you hunted ducks 6 days a week on the Rivers , Bays or any of those places waterfowl go.

I owned some of the greatest Ruffed Grouse dogs that every ran the face of the earth . They were hunted 6 days a week and for anywhere a hour to 8 hours a day. Those dogs I kept and hunted had great bottom. Two of those GSP were hunted till they were 14 years old . Go's without saying the pointers I owned could run all day every day as well . If you are a weekend warrior and only can hunt 30 min or couple hours one day a week . Many of these dogs I owed would be difficult for any one to hunt and would not have been for you.

Bottom to my understanding is same as indorence with few other great things mixed in . Great bottom Has nothing to do with speed or desire though that can be included in animal with lots of bottom.

I race pigeons from 100 through 500 miles . First race 130 then 175 , 286 , 500 , back to 130 , 234 , 286 then either a 400 or 500 maybe a 600 miller . Add the millage up . My birds raced around 2500 plus race miles a season , every Sat , back to back . Up to 5 years old they were raced. I expected them to have lots of bottom or else they would not be in my lofts. In Holland I think some of those birds race 8000km a season . Speed is needed but super intelligence is high on the list as well .

My duck and goose dog or River dogs were hunted 6 days a week and for their life . My retrieves had lots of bottom . Though I never shot the amount of ducks you read stories about my retrieves still hunted harsh conditions and ruff places like the Susguehanna River. it is no play ground. I would think serious duck hunters need a dog with lots of bottom .

Has nothing to do with taking pressure as far as training or collar . But I would guess the dogs with great bottom can deal with most any thing .

end of story .

Like many, If one mentions pressure most go right to the collar, pressure is pressure. There is training pressure, hunting pressure, collar pressure. 400 yard retrieves with many factors, a 200 yard water retrieve over dead stumps and Lilly pad that they have to climb over, black berries so thick that all you have is to listen for them. They can take what you dish out and bring home the bacon. the point is that it has nothing to do with drive and you can not have enough.
Keith

 

[teacher504]

I always used "bottom" in order to describe a dog's ability to accept pressure and respond appropriately (i.e. not fold up, sulk, pout, or get so stressed he/she cycles through every choice but the correct one). To me, it's different than "drive." Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly, but if too much bottom is a bad thing, I'll take more of that. I'd rather have "too much" bottom than not enough.

 

[Golddogs]

My pup now has the ability to do things regardless of the results.. so far nothing I've asked is too much. Only thing that worries me is he is 'balls to the wall" when training and when even resting he is wanting more...
He got his name from retrieving a bumper through a multi-flora rose bush at 3 months old. Went through it going and coming... tough pup..

I do not believe so. This is how I would describe bottom and have done so previously.

Bottom: " A dog that has drive and desire, that does not change when given correction. Comes right back and goes as hard as before the correction with good attitude and demeanor. "

What you defining, to me, is desire/drive/love of the retrieve. And that, IMO, if not controlled, could become a liability. But to me, is not related to bottom as I define it.

 

[1tulip]

The definition of what bottom is has been discuss many time on here. Many have said that it is how much pressure a dog can handle. To me it's just that the dog can take a licking and keep on ticking and contains more than one aspect of the dogs personality.

As far as the OP. I would not get caught up on distance. more on focus and determination. She is still vary young. Try to throw in some water some where.

Keith

I saw an example of bottom at a HT once. 12 y.o. lab who was already MH, probably running one of her last hunt tests. Somewhere along in her life, she'd had her left front leg amputated. She seemed to not notice. She was doing great point-wise going into the last series, but the final bird involved a big swim across a pond and of course, she got a big fat duck. On the send, she had no trouble making it across the water. tight hunt, picks it up and turns around to return. When she hit swimming water, her head submerged with every stroke. It looked like her right front was getting her head up, but not helping push her and that duck across the water. Every time she went under most of us watching wanted to swim out and get her. But there was no quit in her. Every stroke, she came up blowing water out of her nose. Gradually she got the rear legs providing enough push that she made it back. Came up to her handler like it was just one more bird. Made her delivery and walked off the line.

I think the dog that has bottom is the dog that won't quit.