[jhnnythndr]

I will admit that in my younger dogs who have had primarily retriever training, upland skills have suffered compared to my older dog who was trained upland hunting first. They were too young to upland hunt last season, but I wish I had done more nose and tracking with them earlier. I'm hoping to turn that around this season, with a bunch of wild birds. At least I have my older dog to help catch them up. She was a spring pup; old enough to hunt upland her first fall, her upland skills have always been excellent. My older dog, took to the retriever game pretty well, but does have an independent streak that comes out at particular inopportune times. I think a balance can be achieved between both skill sets, but I haven't yet figured that balance. I need more of an upland dog, so we'll have to see how the late comers develop this season, they might not be seeing anymore retriever tests for awhile.

My dog definitely has issues that are the direct result of grouse opening in August. She was born December 25. She was 8 months old and already a proficient marker- so I had none of the marking problems develop that the other guy mentioned- but we left off at FTP to go hunting for the rest of the year... Until It got too cold for a puppy to duck hunt by which time ak is pretty well snowed in- so T waited until the spring- and trying to get that dog to run sideways in a straight line - even now at almost 4 is tough. She lines well and angles back real nicely, but overs its nose down and hunting. She's fast too so I get us into "over" situations with more frequency than any man should. Guess where it's not an issue. Water. She only knows the way she's been taught there. I think I'll be holding back competitve dogs from now on until at least they have really solid basics, and even then it'll be case by case. A knucklehea might not get to hunt for himself until he's 3... And then of course there'll be the learning curve, but a dog that loves birds will figure out how to get them with you.

Was it Bubba who said its a hell of a lot easier to teach an NFC to hunt than it is to teach 90% of the dogs in the marsh, and lets extend that to the upland, to NFC.

 

[trout bum]

"Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean."

I think you fellows need to go back and read what he posted. He said they were ready to finish, retriever training and obedience.....started dogs ready for the next step, not finished.....big difference.

 

[Steve Shaver]

"Here you say 6 months to finish bird and retriever training all before obedience starts,,,i'm not sure what you mean."

I think you fellows need to go back and read what he posted. He said they were ready to finish, retriever training and obedience.....started dogs ready for the next step, not finished.....big difference.

It's not a question of started or finished but doing one before the other. To a lot of us this is putting the cart before the horse.
To me all this influence handling the way I'm seeing it in the video without doing the obedience and other retriever work is just handicapping the dog and the trainer. The way I look at it influence handling is not a bad idea but a lot of other things could be done along with it.
To me an 8 month dog is or should be pretty much ready to go as a started dog but that includes obedience and everything else

 

[trout bum]

It's not a question of started or finished but doing one before the other. To a lot of us this is putting the cart before the horse.
To me all this influence handling the way I'm seeing it in the video without doing the obedience and other retriever work is just handicapping the dog and the trainer. The way I look at it influence handling is not a bad idea but a lot of other things could be done along with it.
To me an 8 month dog is or should be pretty much ready to go as a started dog but that includes obedience and everything else

When you do start obedience?

6 months seems about right

 

[jrrichar]

When you do start obedience?

6 months seems about right

That seems pretty late to me! I start obedience right out of the gate. The adherence standard evolves but certainly introduction to commands and meanings are done right from the point of arrival at 8 to 10 weeks. Formal obedience is typically the word we use for training at the 6 month mark, but the pup certainly knows the commands they are just reinforced.

 

[trout bum]

Now you're getting "formal"....a command doesn't mean much if not reinforced.

It's not like social skills such as being in the house, how to load up & ride in the kennel, walk next to you or with a lead can't or are not worked on right out of the chute. A fellow can still introduce those commands and social skills while enhancing influence handling..and then on to the formalities of training.

 

[Steve Shaver]

That seems pretty late to me! I start obedience right out of the gate. The adherence standard evolves but certainly introduction to commands and meanings are done right from the point of arrival at 8 to 10 weeks. Formal obedience is typically the word we use for training at the 6 month mark, but the pup certainly knows the commands they are just reinforced.

I pretty much agree with this except I actually start formal obedience a little earlier 4 to 5 months depending on the dog. Before that is what I would call influence training. Not like what is shown here but everything prior to 4 months old is done by trying to influence the proper behavior without any negative reinforcement or correction. This is good. I really never had a word for it. I always called it guidance instead of training. Now I think I'll just call it influence training. The term fits perfectly but sounds better. There is a wide definition to the word influence. Later on my dogs are very much influenced by the collar.

 

[Steve Shaver]

Now you're getting "formal"....a command doesn't mean much if not reinforced.

It's not like social skills such as being in the house, how to load up & ride in the kennel, walk next to you or with a lead can't or are not worked on right out of the chute. A fellow can still introduce those commands and social skills while enhancing influence handling..and then on to the formalities of training.

Yes they can and are. It's called influence handling. I've done it with every puppy I've ever had. That's what you do with puppies. Never knew it was a formal program to be followed.

 

[jrrichar]

I pretty much agree with this except I actually start formal obedience a little earlier 4 to 5 months depending on the dog. Before that is what I would call influence training. Not like what is shown here but everything prior to 4 months old is done by trying to influence the proper behavior without any negative reinforcement or correction. This is good. I really never had a word for it. I always called it guidance instead of training. Now I think I'll just call it influence training. The term fits perfectly but sounds better. There is a wide definition to the word influence. Later on my dogs are very much influenced by the collar.

Haha! I would say that this is very true. We just do it without a name, never really gave it much thought. However, a pup between the 8-12 week mark is all influence. That's what makes that age so vital to any training process. Not trying to down play the process that others are discussing but rather maybe the answer to the OP's question is actually: all of the breeders, HT/FT, and waterfowl people train using influence but shift rapidly to a more structured obedience dictated protocol while still retaining a minority of the influence techniques (good handlers lining up a dog as an example).

 

[dtvm7469]

I stand corrected.

I finally got my son to find a computer and read the comments, we talked briefly, he takes this no talk crap seriously.

With that in mind, I'll try to explain influence handling better.

First, Influence Handling--IS NOT TRAINING.

Formal Training as we humans understand it begins at the end of the Influence handling. At the end of handling period the pups are a blank slate like they where at 12 weeks. The pups have been given minimum human commands 3 words, Hup, dead, and No. Except when the sons brain goes into obedience mode in the videos.The pups have experienced and conquered most environments and obstacles that can cause time consuming set backs in Advanced Training programs. They have conquered these obstacles under the influence of their peers, not the handler. They will except any training for what ever purpose, they are just 4 months older.​

​

​

Second, Influence Handling-- IS TRAINING.

The training happens within the pack itself. The handlers job is to slowly expose the pack to different environments that challenge the bolder pups in the pack. As the bolder pups conquer these obstacles they drag the timid pups with them this interaction emboldens the timid pups. By the end of the 4 months there are fewer timid pups or a least the seriously timid have been identified.

Range and direction, in the beginning as the handler walks the pups he has to shuffle his feet to keep from stepping on the pups. With each outing the bold pups start to venture further out pulling the timid pups with them. When the pack reaches the range the handler wants he turns around and walks the opposite direction. The influence of the pack leader (handler) moving away pulls the pack back to the handler, "AKA: Here or Come". The same holds true for moving to the side handler walks left pack moves left. Eventually the handler has total control over the pack.

These principles hold true for all obstacles, water, retrieving what ever. If one in the pack conquers an obstacle the rest will usually follow.

One of the strongest influences in the pack is what humans may call envy, or jealousy. The handler uses that influence to make retrievers really want to retrieve. Sometimes it can even replace force fetching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the pups are ready to sell at the end of the influence handling the buyers get to select their pup after participating in a few handling sessions. Reviewing the whole pack at work and looking for the best inherent breed traits allows the buyers a great chance of getting a great dog.
Picking a pup at 8 weeks is sometimes a risky business.

The breeders that use the system like it because they get instant feed back on how their program is working.


Hope this helps let me know?

Thanks for advice and comments.


​

​

​

 

[dtvm7469]

Ahoy Janell,

I just posted a comment and the first sentence is. INFLUENCE HANDLING IS NOT TRAINING. I had not read your comments when I posted and I mean no disrespect I just want people to read how my son does it.

 

[jrrichar]

Ahoy Janell,

I just posted a comment and the first sentence is. INFLUENCE HANDLING IS NOT TRAINING. I had not read your comments when I posted and I mean no disrespect I just want people to read how my son does it.

First, I don't see any disrespect in trying to clarify a point...

I guess I am confused on the term "influence handling" given that it is explained as "not training" and then "training". Is the context to when this changes the pack mentality or the handlers involvement?

I think most people who have any experience raising more then one dog from puppyhood (successfully) are familiar with the pack mentality and often monopolize it (putting themselves as alpha as I am sure your son does later on). I see the benefit in your son's method for selection of a 12 week old pup from a breeder that has participated in the protocol but from my experience that 6-12 week span of learning, development, and bonding in a dog is one that I would like critical involvement in. That is my own personal experience and preference, thus I personally would not select a pup from a breeder that followed this particular process.

 

[Mark Littlejohn]

They're extremely smart, eager-to-please animals that will eventually figure out what you want.
For those of us aspiring to the pinnacle of a sport and don't want to risk the dog living long enough to figure it out, we formalize training early.
Sorry, but I'm not impressed with the video.
Put some chicken nuggets in your pocket and they'll follow you anywhere.

 

[pintailkilla]

That type of "training" is what I did with my first Lab when I was 12 years old and had no clue how to really train a dog . My current pup is 7 months old and is steady ,does quadruple marks on land and water, sits , comes on both voice and whistle , floating decoy and spinning wing decoy proofed . She is now picking up hand signals and loves boats and gunfire . Seems like alot of wasted time to me .

 

[Rick Hall]

Somehow I don't recall Gould suggesting that readers go out and acquire a pack of puppies to influence theirs.

 

[Swack]

I finally got my son to find a computer and read the comments, we talked briefly, he takes this no talk crap seriously.

With that in mind, I'll try to explain influence handling better.

First, Influence Handling--IS NOT TRAINING.

Formal Training as we humans understand it begins at the end of the Influence handling. At the end of handling period the pups are a blank slate like they where at 12 weeks. The pups have been given minimum human commands 3 words, Hup, dead, and No. Except when the sons brain goes into obedience mode in the videos.The pups have experienced and conquered most environments and obstacles that can cause time consuming set backs in Advanced Training programs. They have conquered these obstacles under the influence of their peers, not the handler. They will except any training for what ever purpose, they are just 4 months older.​

Second, Influence Handling-- IS TRAINING.

The training happens within the pack itself. The handlers job is to slowly expose the pack to different environments that challenge the bolder pups in the pack. As the bolder pups conquer these obstacles they drag the timid pups with them this interaction emboldens the timid pups. By the end of the 4 months there are fewer timid pups or a least the seriously timid have been identified.

Range and direction, in the beginning as the handler walks the pups he has to shuffle his feet to keep from stepping on the pups. With each outing the bold pups start to venture further out pulling the timid pups with them. When the pack reaches the range the handler wants he turns around and walks the opposite direction. The influence of the pack leader (handler) moving away pulls the pack back to the handler, "AKA: Here or Come". The same holds true for moving to the side handler walks left pack moves left. Eventually the handler has total control over the pack.

These principles hold true for all obstacles, water, retrieving what ever. If one in the pack conquers an obstacle the rest will usually follow.

One of the strongest influences in the pack is what humans may call envy, or jealousy. The handler uses that influence to make retrievers really want to retrieve. Sometimes it can even replace force fetching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the pups are ready to sell at the end of the influence handling the buyers get to select their pup after participating in a few handling sessions. Reviewing the whole pack at work and looking for the best inherent breed traits allows the buyers a great chance of getting a great dog.
Picking a pup at 8 weeks is sometimes a risky business.

The breeders that use the system like it because they get instant feed back on how their program is working.


Hope this helps let me know?

Thanks for advice and comments.


​

​

​

Sorry if you're not finding us to be a receptive audience. You asked for a discussion of the training method and that's what you're getting.

I'd like to make a couple of points regarding your post quoted above. You say that at the end of the handling period (at 8 months of age) the pups are blank slates, just like they were at 12 weeks. I must vigorously disagree with that statement. Just because there was a concerted effort to avoid "training" the pups, they were learning just the same. They have had 5 months of life experience (past the age of 12 weeks) that has formed their basis of how the world works. Without discipline (not inferring force, but as defined by Webster: "1. training that develops self-control, character, or efficiency. 2. the result of such training; orderly conduct. 3. submission to authority and control) the pups may not easily submit their will to their trainer's authority. This may result in the use of more force than would have been necessary had meaningful training been conducted at an earlier age when the pups would have been more receptive. Also, note that 12 week old puppies are entering the final month of mental development and will be much more influenced by their lessons at that time than they will at 8 months of age. Additionally, 8 months is an age at which sex hormones begin to affect the demeanor of young dogs and is an age at which they will often challenge for pack dominance. Not the best age to begin obedience training in my humble opinion.

Secondly, I question whether the bolder pups will make the more timid pups bolder. I believe the timid pups will learn to rely on the leadership of the bolder pups. In the absence of the bolder pup's leadership the timid pups will not be able to function with self-confidence. I think it's necessary to take the timid pups on their own hikes so they can develop self-reliance. A poor student doesn't gain knowledge and self-esteem by copying off of the A-student's paper. He needs to learn to do the work himself!

Finally, is this a discussion about what method is best to train 22 puppies at a time as gundogs or about what method is best to obtain the greatest potential from a puppy? That context alone may be a huge factor in this discussion.

Swack

 

[dtvm7469]

Not Training, Training, or being influenced.

First, I don't see any disrespect in trying to clarify a point...

I guess I am confused on the term "influence handling" given that it is explained as "not training" and then "training". Is the context to when this changes the pack mentality or the handlers involvement?

I think most people who have any experience raising more then one dog from puppyhood (successfully) are familiar with the pack mentality and often monopolize it (putting themselves as alpha as I am sure your son does later on). I see the benefit in your son's method for selection of a 12 week old pup from a breeder that has participated in the protocol but from my experience that 6-12 week span of learning, development, and bonding in a dog is one that I would like critical involvement in. That is my own personal experience and preference, thus I personally would not select a pup from a breeder that followed this particular process.

I'll try to explain by example.

"not training" .

The handler silently walks with the pack. He comes to a ditch and steps over it without saying anything. He is handling the pack, No Training.

​

"training"

​

The bold pups in the pack jump the ditch without hesitation. The timid pups are then influenced to jump the ditch to keep up with the pack. The timid pups where trained by the bold pups to not be fearful an jump the ditch. This with no human commands.
​

Socialization, Dan often receives the pups at eight weeks the pups live with him the first month. He interacts with each pup daily to break the litter instinct and create the bond.

Dan's sole purpose in life is to find out how good dogs can be. Did I mention he doesn't have a family he lives alone on the training grounds with dogs, cats and pigeons.

​

 

[dtvm7469]

Sorry if you're not finding us to be a receptive audience. You asked for a discussion of the training method and that's what you're getting.

I'd like to make a couple of points regarding your post quoted above. You say that at the end of the handling period (at 8 months of age) the pups are blank slates, just like they were at 12 weeks. I must vigorously disagree with that statement. Just because there was a concerted effort to avoid "training" the pups, they were learning just the same. They have had 5 months of life experience (past the age of 12 weeks) that has formed their basis of how the world works. Without discipline (not inferring force, but as defined by Webster: "1. training that develops self-control, character, or efficiency. 2. the result of such training; orderly conduct. 3. submission to authority and control) the pups may not easily submit their will to their trainer's authority. This may result in the use of more force than would have been necessary had meaningful training been conducted at an earlier age when the pups would have been more receptive. Also, note that 12 week old puppies are entering the final month of mental development and will be much more influenced by their lessons at that time than they will at 8 months of age. Additionally, 8 months is an age at which sex hormones begin to affect the demeanor of young dogs and is an age at which they will often challenge for pack dominance. Not the best age to begin obedience training in my humble opinion.

Secondly, I question whether the bolder pups will make the more timid pups bolder. I believe the timid pups will learn to rely on the leadership of the bolder pups. In the absence of the bolder pup's leadership the timid pups will not be able to function with self-confidence. I think it's necessary to take the timid pups on their own hikes so they can develop self-reliance. A poor student doesn't gain knowledge and self-esteem by copying off of the A-student's paper. He needs to learn to do the work himself!

Finally, is this a discussion about what method is best to train 22 puppies at a time as gundogs or about what method is best to obtain the greatest potential from a puppy? That context alone may be a huge factor in this discussion.

Swack

If you review the original post I think you will find the original question was, Does anybody out there use these handling techniques?

I am not an authority on this, my training experience is with NAVHDA utility dog testing. I used the traditional rearing and training methods.

Your comments seem to be concerning the timing and age of training. I am not an expert on these things so the only way I could figure out what ages training could or should start was through the Seeing Eye foundation, I think their training task are much more complicated than teaching a retriever how to retriever. Sorry for the cut and paste but I did not want to miss quote them.

7. What is the most important role of the puppy raiser?
You need to show your puppy as much of the outside world as you can so the puppy can become accustomed to its future work environment. Puppies need to be exposed to things such as car travel, sounds, sudden noises, animals, crowds, slippery floors, stairs and stores so that they will not be intimidated by these things as Seeing Eye dogs.

12. How old will my dog be when he or she returns to The Seeing Eye for training?
Your dog will be anywhere between 12 and 15 months old.

I believe NO.7 can be done with 22 puppy's at once, might need a big kitchen.

 

[John Robinson]

Your comments seem to be concerning the timing and age of training. I am not an expert on these things so the only way I could figure out what ages training could or should start was through the Seeing Eye foundation, I think their training task are much more complicated than teaching a retriever how to retriever. Sorry for the cut and paste but I did not want to miss quote them.


7. What is the most important role of the puppy raiser?
You need to show your puppy as much of the outside world as you can so the puppy can become accustomed to its future work environment. Puppies need to be exposed to things such as car travel, sounds, sudden noises, animals, crowds, slippery floors, stairs and stores so that they will not be intimidated by these things as Seeing Eye dogs.

12. How old will my dog be when he or she returns to The Seeing Eye for training?
Your dog will be anywhere between 12 and 15 months old.

I believe NO.7 can be done with 22 puppy's at once, might need a big kitchen.

Seeing eye dog training is certainly complex and difficult, but no more so than advance retriever training, just different. In training retrievers we start early, actually the day we bring them home as seven week old pups. That early training is all about fun coupled with gradual levels of discipline, socialization and building a strong desire to retrieve. They also develop work habits in those early months. I do this all at home with expectation being the dog will usually begin formal training around six months of age, that's where we start a 6-12 month program that at the end will produce a dog that heels, sits, watches birds go down from distant (200-300 yards) guns, retrieves to hand and handles on simple blinds as well as marks. The dog has learned how to turn off pressure, take corrections and learn. These dogs should be ready for derby competition, Senior hunt test and not far from Master HT's.

I just described the typical FT-HT dog that most on this forum relate to, I think the kind of training and dog you guys are talking about is quite a bit different from what most of us on RTF have. Nothing wrong with that, it's just different and doesn't really relate to what we do with our dogs. Now lest you think we don't also hunt our dogs on marsh or field, most of us avidly hunt our dogs. The skills we have built into our dogs make them exceptional hunters, so in the end we may all arrive at the same place.

John

 

[dtvm7469]

Seeing eye dog training is certainly complex and difficult, but no more so than advance retriever training, just different. In training retrievers we start early, actually the day we bring them home as seven week old pups. That early training is all about fun coupled with gradual levels of discipline, socialization and building a strong desire to retrieve. They also develop work habits in those early months. I do this all at home with expectation being the dog will usually begin formal training around six months of age, that's where we start a 6-12 month program that at the end will produce a dog that heels, sits, watches birds go down from distant (200-300 yards) guns, retrieves to hand and handles on simple blinds as well as marks. The dog has learned how to turn off pressure, take corrections and learn. These dogs should be ready for derby competition, Senior hunt test and not far from Master HT's.

I just described the typical FT-HT dog that most on this forum relate to, I think the kind of training and dog you guys are talking about is quite a bit different from what most of us on RTF have. Nothing wrong with that, it's just different and doesn't really relate to what we do with our dogs. Now lest you think we don't also hunt our dogs on marsh or field, most of us avidly hunt our dogs. The skills we have built into our dogs make them exceptional hunters, so in the end we may all arrive at the same place.

John

Thanks John, well said.

I didn't really start this thread to debate the principles of influence handling but just to find out if anyone used this method. It is diffidently a paradigm shift from the norm and with anything not proven and accepted by the masses there will be debate.

A story, in 1963 I was helping a Retriever Field Trial trainer handle his dog, I shagged the chain gang. He instructed me to speak the commands into the whistle as I blew it. He said the dogs will help interpret the sound of the whistle command at greater distances. His command words where based on the ability to speak them into his whistle and he used special brand whistles . He said it also helps the dog differentiate his whistle from others.

I brought this subject up one time at a dog club meeting and was laughed out of the group. When i got in the training field with my dogs and those other guys where chasing those pointers and yelling and whistling, I got the last laugh.