[captainjack]

Ok op sounds like a nice pup however you may be overreaching.
Pup learns by making right decisions and your responsibility is to set up training opps
At the derby hooked guns get you dropped. At the all age it's the difference in color

Good luck
Dk

Not when I judge them (derbies) Dave.

 

[BJGatley]

That's where the chewing out comes from, with my young dogs my kids have been taught if they see the dog fade like that to immediately throw another bird. If I had to blow the whistle it was because they failed to help at the appropriate time.

Right on...
I remember that ass chewing from my mentor several times when I was starting out.

 

[Dave Kress]

Right #21 derbies are about natural abilities.
However there is many a team been dropped by folks.

Dk

 

[Todd Caswell]

Not when I judge them (derbies) Dave.

Or Me, unless they set up camp and hunt there.......................

 

[budsdad]

I have a philosophical question for you field trialers as it relates to "hooking the gun". Is the area of the fall behind a stand up gun?

From the Field Trial Rules June 2013

Ability to “mark’’ does not necessarily imply “pinpointing the fall.’’ A dog that misses the “fall’’ on the
first cast, but recognizes the depth of the “area of the fall,’’ stays in it, then quickly and systematically “hunts it-out,’’ has done both a creditable and an intelligent job of marking. Such work should not be appreciably out-scored by the dog that “finds’’ or “pinpoints’’ on his first cast. However, a dog which consistently, i.e., during an entire stake, marks his birds in a closer area, hence, more accurately than another dog, should be judged
accordingly.

Maybe this will clear it up.

 

[jhnnythndr]

Right. That's why those flat throws are so important in derby level marks- it's how you separate the markers from the dogs that just ran til they got beyond the gun and started hunting. And that's why it's so important to teach them to run to the bird not the gun. People argue about the derby - and the line-Vs the mark, the only reason I care abut the line is because in plenty of birds if you get appreciably offline you get lost. If you have a dog that can mark and knows to go to the bird- not the gun, and that there's never a bird by the gun, then all the conversations about hooked guns won't apply to your dog anyway. Yes the natural ability to mark is what's being tested - but that training is what sets up a good marking dog to consistently kill marks.

 

[BJGatley]

Right. That's why those flat throws are so important in derby level marks- it's how you separate the markers from the dogs that just ran til they got beyond the gun and started hunting. And that's why it's so important to teach them to run to the bird not the gun. People argue about the derby - and the line-Vs the mark, the only reason I care abut the line is because in plenty of birds if you get appreciably offline you get lost. If you have a dog that can mark and knows to go to the bird- not the gun, and that there's never a bird by the gun, then all the conversations about hooked guns won't apply to your dog anyway. Yes the natural ability to mark is what's being tested - but that training is what sets up a good marking dog to consistently kill marks.

There was a technique in my training group to prevent young dogs going to the gun.
I mention that a couple of years ago and got reamed.
There was an misunderstanding that it pertain to young dogs and not the big dogs.

 

[Mike Sale]

So are in the derby, are the marks usually flat throws ?

 

[captainjack]

So are in the derby, are the marks usually flat throws ?

No. It depends on the judges, the factors, etc.
For example let's say that, due to the grounds you are given to work with, you need to throw your long memory bird with the wind. What would happen if you made a long, flat throw, and several dogs faded with the wind?

 

[captainjack]

Useful or useless exercise...

Three lines depicting 3 different dogs. X marks the bird. All dogs went to the bird without cracking a tail, putting a nose in the air or to the ground or showing any other signs of a hunt, they just took 3 different paths.
Rank the marks 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and tell us why you ranked as you did.

 

[jhnnythndr]

No appreciable difference in the mark. But if your dog picks up 8 chickens looking like the green dog- and yellow and red pick up 8 birds looking like your diagram- are you going to be overly interested in which one if them is 2nd, and which one is 3rd?

 

[captainjack]

No appreciable difference in the mark. But if your dog picks up 8 chickens looking like the green dog- and yellow and red pick up 8 birds looking like your diagram- are you going to be overly interested in which one if them is 2nd, and which one is 3rd?

So you rank green 1st?

Let's say that wasn't your dog and you are concerned about 2nd & 3rd. Which dog had your 2nd best mark?

 

[jhnnythndr]

Did I say green had the best mark? Or did I say there was no appreciable difference? And add that green would get blue if those three each got all 8 in the described fashion... Don't try to twist what I'm saying. Especially over three different colored lines on a flat white background. I can go down the rabbit hole- sure. 2nd goes to the dog that stayed out there by the bird- and if he winded it- good on him. 3rd goes to the dog that ran until he got to a gun and then took a lap and got the bird. You ask why- I say one dog ran to where the bird was and one ran to the gun and from there figured it out. The dog that stayed out away from the gun gave me better indication that he marked the fall. Not the gun. i sure hope we can come up with better seperation than that diagram shows over the course of the 4 series.


but screw the derby anyway- lets get back on track. You have to train them not to hook guns- why? Because you will encounter plenty setups that if you end up behind the gun you are off in nevernever land lost and gone forever.

So, how do you feel we address it in the derby? You and I judging see a lot of dogs flaring guns or hay bales or tall blades of grass or s shadow or fading or squaring- are you ok with setting up a second series that helps dogs that don't run at the bird to get lost? or a 4th that is almost impossible to do if you get out early? Or are those not fair marking tests? This is for my education.

 

[captainjack]

Did I say green had the best mark? Or did I say there was no appreciable difference? And add that green would get blue if those three each got all 8 in the described fashion... Don't try to twist what I'm saying. Especially over three different colored lines on a flat white background. I can go down the rabbit hole- sure. 2nd goes to the dog that stayed out there by the bird- and if he winded it- good on him. 3rd goes to the dog that ran until he got to a gun and then took a lap and got the bird. You ask why- I say one dog ran to where the bird was and one ran to the gun and from there figured it out. The dog that stayed out away from the gun gave me better indication that he marked the fall. Not the gun. i sure hope we can come up with better seperation than that diagram shows over the course of the 4 series.


but screw the derby anyway- lets get back on track. You have to train them not to hook guns- why? Because you will encounter plenty setups that if you end up behind the gun you are off in nevernever land lost and gone forever.

So, how do you feel we address it in the derby? You and I judging see a lot of dogs flaring guns or hay bales or tall blades of grass or s shadow or fading or squaring- are you ok with setting up a second series that helps dogs that don't run at the bird to get lost? or a 4th that is almost impossible to do if you get out early? Or are those not fair marking tests? This is for my education.

See the "?" In my post. I'm asking a question, not twisting your words. But you did say that green would get the blue, so I thought you had decided green was best. That's why I asked. I'm curious as to how you and others view the marks that I drew. There is a difference between "hooking" a gun and getting lost or even just starting a hunt behind a gun.

 

[captainjack]

Now, which dog gets 2nd & 3rd?

And for the record, my judges sheets are flat pieces of paper. Lines are not colored because only one dog on each page.

 

[jrrichar]

What handlers and judges hate is that dogs often have to not only mark but demonstrate tremendous training. An example is Glen's diagrams. Is it fair that 3 dogs who all put on a spectacular display of marking ability (given he specifies none had any type of hunt) are graded on the line, no, but it is a competition and only one blue ribbon goes to one dog. Derby is a very difficult stake for that exact reason, the difference between 1st and 2nd is sometimes so small, at least to the judges and gallery, but it is very big to the 2nd place handler.

The stake is what it is. Lines, staying in water, no back siding the gunner, and a hundred other things are "taught" and engrained in these young dogs before we even put them on that pallet. That is why we push through basics and so many are dropped by 12 months of age. We all know that the derby stakes evaluate much more then marking.

Glen: My ranking for 1st diagram green=1st red= 3rd and yellow= 2nd; 2nd diagram= green 1st red 2nd and yellow 3rd. It is usually the mentality of almost all the judges I have ran under as well. That is why we all train our dogs on those key concepts.

Just my 2 cents. The 2015-2016 FT winter season on the west coast looks to be one of the toughest yet. It makes it hard on everyone especially the judges who are given the task of trying to separate some amazing dogs. However, that is what I love the most about FT, seeing just what is possible.

 

[jhnnythndr]

really the take away from this thread is
A) no matter your method, you need to train your dog to stay in front of the gun
B) they are all going to end up on the wrong side eventually so they better be able to figure that out.
C) don't count on the marks in a derby providing real seperation and be prepared to accept some coin toss type decisions. If your dog brings back all 8 at the derbys I've been too you have every right to stand proud.

 

[captainjack]

...
Glen: My ranking for 1st diagram green=1st red= 3rd and yellow= 2nd; 2nd diagram= green 1st red 2nd and yellow 3rd. It is usually the mentality of almost all the judges I have ran under as well. That is why we all train our dogs on those key concepts.

I used this diagram to illustrate a point. The dogs path to the bird did not change, yet the ranking of the mark did/will change for a lot if judges - even very experienced judges. This is wrong. The judging pool is we here on rtf and our training buddies. All we have to do is stop the nonsense of judging the lines.

I can promise you this, when I hold the book, those three dogs have zero separation. If they each did that work on eight birds, my tests were not hard enough and I'd be running a 5th series to get separation, or I'd be looking at line manners, style, etc. To get my placements.

 

[captainjack]

I have a philosophical question for you field trialers as it relates to "hooking the gun". Is the area of the fall behind a stand up gun?

From the Field Trial Rules June 2013

Ability to “mark’’ does not necessarily imply “pinpointing the fall.’’ A dog that misses the “fall’’ on the
first cast, but recognizes the depth of the “area of the fall,’’ stays in it, then quickly and systematically “hunts it-out,’’ has done both a creditable and an intelligent job of marking. Such work should not be appreciably out-scored by the dog that “finds’’ or “pinpoints’’ on his first cast. However, a dog which consistently, i.e., during an entire stake, marks his birds in a closer area, hence, more accurately than another dog, should be judged
accordingly.

Maybe this will clear it up.

Marty, my area of fall is in relation to the bird, not to the gun. So, depending on the mark, it could very well include area behind a stand up gun.

So on a relatively short go bird with few factors, my AOF will be fairly small and likely not include any area behind the gun. On a tough memory bird, my AOF will be larger and likely would include area behind the gun.

As it relates to hooked guns, traveling behind the gun but not hunting until getting to my AOF would not be scored any differently than hooking into my AOF from the same distance outside the bird- or going straight to the bird for that matter. My focus is where the dog started to hunt. That's where he thought the bird was, so that tells me whether the dog marked it or not. My co-judge (had judged Nationals btw) in the first derby that I judged never put pencil to paper until the dog started to hunt (or picked up the bird if no hunt). I asked why and they explained that they didn't want the line to the bird to influence scoring/comparing of the mark (unless the dog ran entirely in the wrong direction). So in my scenarios above, they'd just have '+' on the bird indicating a perfect mark for all three dogs.

 

[budsdad]

Useful or useless exercise...

Three lines depicting 3 different dogs. X marks the bird. All dogs went to the bird without cracking a tail, putting a nose in the air or to the ground or showing any other signs of a hunt, they just took 3 different paths.
Rank the marks 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and tell us why you ranked as you did.




View attachment 23267

Impossible to do unless you tell us what factors are on line to the bird. Did any of the dogs avoid rough going or show a lack of perseverance? Make sense?