[MNHunter]

My BLM is now almost 8 months old and we have been following Hillmanns puppy program as well as traffic cop. No Force Fetch yet.

His sit is getting very good and steady and his leash handling is getting better and better. He loves training and loves bumpers. He goes nuts at the site of one. He has a TREMENDOUS desire to chase, often hitting bumpers on the run in a rolling cloud of dust and grass. But, his mouth habits are not good. He sometimes rolls, chews, chomps on the bumpers on the way back, likes to make a "victory lap" from time to time, and he doesn't always like to give them over, sometimes ducking at the last second, reluctant to give it up, chomping and chewing instead.

His first introduction to a live pigeon showed tremendous prey drive, he hit it quick and fearlessly and then proceeded to strip it of its feathers and try to eat it. Since then I haven't had him back on birds until yesterday. We were working on getting comfortable with shotgun fire (which he clearly loved!) so I shot a passing dove just to see what he would do. He was on it quickly and before he got back to me he had it pretty well chewed up. The closer he got to me the more he chomped, ducking me at the last minute just like he sometimes does with the bumpers.

Aside from traditional Force Fetch, is there anything else that I should be doing/not doing to help straighten out these issues?

 

[freezeland]

It's time for FF. stop using birds until you have completed FF.

 

[MNHunter]

It's time for FF. stop using birds until you have completed FF.

Understood. For those that never "Force Fetch", how are these mouth habits addressed? I'm curious because I don't think Hillmann does FF in the "traditional manner" anymore. And I know that many other dogs are trained, especially in Europe, without Force Fetch as it is taught here.

Would it be a bad idea to work on "hold" with a fresh, small bird like a dove or pigeon? Don't let him retrieve it, just encourage him to hold it in his mouth under my supervision? (with no negative pressure of course)

 

[Tony Marshall]

Obviously FF will solve a lot of your issues but CC here would solve a lot by the sounds of things.

 

[bjoiner]

What ever you do, don't use dove. Feathers fall off too easy and cause issues.

 

[truthseeker]

more

How is his OB to Sit and look? In puppy training, these two must be solid. Still and not moving.

Keith

I would sit the dog out there for more than 3 min.

 

[MNHunter]

How is his OB to Sit and look? In puppy training, these two must be solid. Still and not moving.

Keith

I would sit the dog out there for more than 3 min.

His sit during yard work (leash attached) is very good. He will sit very still and stare at the bumper for several minutes until released and then hit the bumper with reckless abandon.

I haven't decided 100% which route I want to take yet regarding Force Fetch which is why I'm inquiring about this issue now. I want to continue his training but don't want to ingrain poor mouth habits any more than I already have.

 

[KwickLabs]

"Would it be a bad idea to work on "hold" with a fresh, small bird like a dove or pigeon? Don't let him retrieve it, just encourage him to hold it in his mouth under my supervision? (with no negative pressure of course)".''

"I shot a passing dove just to see what he would do. He was on it quickly and before he got back to me he had it pretty well chewed up. The closer he got to me the more he chomped, ducking me at the last minute just like he sometimes does with the bumpers."

Question asked and answered.

But, his mouth habits are not good. He sometimes rolls, chews, chomps on the bumpers on the way back, likes to make a "victory lap" from time to time, and he doesn't always like to give them over, sometimes ducking at the last second, reluctant to give it up, chomping and chewing instead."

Why?

Hold comes before Force Fetch. Good mouth habits come before working with birds. Good bird handling comes before that first hunting season. And probably what's driving this "need" is that hunting season has arrived.

"Aside from traditional Force Fetch, is there anything else that I should be doing/not doing to help straighten out these issues?"

Yes, there is. Do what the pups needs.....not what you want.

 

[MNHunter]

"Would it be a bad idea to work on "hold" with a fresh, small bird like a dove or pigeon? Don't let him retrieve it, just encourage him to hold it in his mouth under my supervision? (with no negative pressure of course)".''

"I shot a passing dove just to see what he would do. He was on it quickly and before he got back to me he had it pretty well chewed up. The closer he got to me the more he chomped, ducking me at the last minute just like he sometimes does with the bumpers."

Question asked and answered.

But, his mouth habits are not good. He sometimes rolls, chews, chomps on the bumpers on the way back, likes to make a "victory lap" from time to time, and he doesn't always like to give them over, sometimes ducking at the last second, reluctant to give it up, chomping and chewing instead."

Why?

Hold comes before Force Fetch. Good mouth habits come before working with birds. Good bird handling comes before that first hunting season. And probably what's driving this "need" is that hunting season has arrived.

"Aside from traditional Force Fetch, is there anything else that I should be doing/not doing to help straighten out these issues?"

Yes, there is. Do what the pups needs.....not what you want.

Thanks for the reply Jim. What the pup needs is what I'm trying to figure out.

I feel like it's time to start trying to clean up his mouth habits and at some point I'd imagine he needs to start working with birds, so I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate them into his training without creating any bad habits. If it's still too soon to work with birds then I won't do it, regardless of approaching hunting season.

We will continue to work on "hold" in a positive manner for now until I decide which way to go with Force Fetch. Is it okay to work on hold with a dead bird? Or should I just stick to bumpers and such?

 

[Paul Brown]

I have refrained from commenting on many of your posts regarding your training questions, but now I'll take a stab at it. If you're ready for some tough love. Ready? Here it comes:
YOU'RE NOT FOLLOWING HILLMANN!
I've spent a good deal of time reading your previous posts regarding training this pup and "I'm following Hillmann" questions this morning and it is apparent that you've glossed over too much. Either that or you didn't fully comprehend what was being shown. As an example, in one of your other posts, you mentioned that Hillmann doesn't dwell on heel very much, when in fact the three pillars of the puppy DVD is chase something, walk on a lead, and sit. He transitions from just walking on a lead to heeling. And as in all skills he points out that you teach, then reinforce, and then practice. And then practice some more. No, he doesn't show hours of practicing, he leaves that up to us to do as much practicing as our dogs need to perfect the skill.
Additionally, you posted that you were finishing up with the puppy DVD, yet you haven't worked on hold at all it doesn't sound like. If you have, it isn't nearly enough. So, you and your dog are not ready to move on to "The Fetch Command".
Furthermore, and I can tell you from recent experience, that this victory lap episode is a result of not spending enough time working on walking on a lead. Jim of KwikLabs made an excellent post regarding this several weeks ago. It will solve a lot of these 'self employed' issues such as not returning with the bird-I can vouch for that.
As to the dog exhibiting a known behavior, chomping the dove, that's on you. The dog had done that to a point where you stopped using birds in training until yesterday. The outcome was predictable.
Jim, Glen, and several others familiar with Hillmann have offered good advice and constructive comments, they have indeed been the peanuts in the box of Crackerjack. I, on the other hand, am being the stale piece of popcorn; but, I am convinced you needed to hear this.
I will sum up with this, I believe the phrase "following Hillmann" is a misnomer. It should really be stated as, "I am adopting Hillmann." The impetice being on adopting. I firmly believe that the answers are in your DVD. Good luck.

 

[truthseeker]

From what I read and the dog is 8 months old. I would start formal training. Start back with OB and move forward. Building a good foundation is vary important. I would not give the dog any more live birds, in the foreseeable future. Try in find, A GROUP TO TRAIN WITH.

Keith

 

[KwickLabs]

"Is it okay to work on hold with a dead bird?" No.....for now.

"Or should I just stick to bumpers and such?" Not sure what "and such" means, but until
bumpers are handled properly, birds will most likely prove to be a "Bridge Too Far".

Moving at what may seem to be a slow pace is quite often faster in the long run.

 

[truthseeker]

I have refrained from commenting on many of your posts regarding your training questions, but now I'll take a stab at it. If you're ready for some tough love. Ready? Here it comes:
YOU'RE NOT FOLLOWING HILLMANN!
I've spent a good deal of time reading your previous posts regarding training this pup and "I'm following Hillmann" questions this morning and it is apparent that you've glossed over too much. Either that or you didn't fully comprehend what was being shown. As an example, in one of your other posts, you mentioned that Hillmann doesn't dwell on heel very much, when in fact the three pillars of the puppy DVD is chase something, walk on a lead, and sit. He transitions from just walking on a lead to heeling. And as in all skills he points out that you teach, then reinforce, and then practice. And then practice some more. No, he doesn't show hours of practicing, he leaves that up to us to do as much practicing as our dogs need to perfect the skill.
Additionally, you posted that you were finishing up with the puppy DVD, yet you haven't worked on hold at all it doesn't sound like. If you have, it isn't nearly enough. So, you and your dog are not ready to move on to "The Fetch Command".
Furthermore, and I can tell you from recent experience, that this victory lap episode is a result of not spending enough time working on walking on a lead. Jim of KwikLabs made an excellent post regarding this several weeks ago. It will solve a lot of these 'self employed' issues such as not returning with the bird-I can vouch for that.
As to the dog exhibiting a known behavior, chomping the dove, that's on you. The dog had done that to a point where you stopped using birds in training until yesterday. The outcome was predictable.
Jim, Glen, and several others familiar with Hillmann have offered good advice and constructive comments, they have indeed been the peanuts in the box of Crackerjack. I, on the other hand, am being the stale piece of popcorn; but, I am convinced you needed to hear this.
I will sum up with this, I believe the phrase "following Hillmann" is a misnomer. It should really be stated as, "I am adopting Hillmann." The impetice being on adopting. I firmly believe that the answers are in your DVD. Good luck.

This is the problem with most DVD's. There's more question than answers. The best way if you are serious about training, is to get with your local retriever club. Along with the DVD.

Keith

 

[MNHunter]

"Is it okay to work on hold with a dead bird?" No.....for now.

"Or should I just stick to bumpers and such?" Not sure what "and such" means, but until
bumpers are handled properly, birds will most likely prove to be a "Bridge Too Far".

Moving at what may seem to be a slow pace is quite often faster in the long run.

"and such" simply meant, bumpers, tennis ball, paint roller, squeaky toy, whatever we are working with. Generally bumpers though, aside from working on hold in the house with some of his softer toys at times.

I'll just keep working on hold with non-feathered items for now along with more leash work, thanks.

 

[MNHunter]

I have refrained from commenting on many of your posts regarding your training questions, but now I'll take a stab at it. If you're ready for some tough love. Ready? Here it comes:
YOU'RE NOT FOLLOWING HILLMANN!
I've spent a good deal of time reading your previous posts regarding training this pup and "I'm following Hillmann" questions this morning and it is apparent that you've glossed over too much. Either that or you didn't fully comprehend what was being shown. As an example, in one of your other posts, you mentioned that Hillmann doesn't dwell on heel very much, when in fact the three pillars of the puppy DVD is chase something, walk on a lead, and sit. He transitions from just walking on a lead to heeling. And as in all skills he points out that you teach, then reinforce, and then practice. And then practice some more. No, he doesn't show hours of practicing, he leaves that up to us to do as much practicing as our dogs need to perfect the skill.
Additionally, you posted that you were finishing up with the puppy DVD, yet you haven't worked on hold at all it doesn't sound like. If you have, it isn't nearly enough. So, you and your dog are not ready to move on to "The Fetch Command".
Furthermore, and I can tell you from recent experience, that this victory lap episode is a result of not spending enough time working on walking on a lead. Jim of KwikLabs made an excellent post regarding this several weeks ago. It will solve a lot of these 'self employed' issues such as not returning with the bird-I can vouch for that.
As to the dog exhibiting a known behavior, chomping the dove, that's on you. The dog had done that to a point where you stopped using birds in training until yesterday. The outcome was predictable.
Jim, Glen, and several others familiar with Hillmann have offered good advice and constructive comments, they have indeed been the peanuts in the box of Crackerjack. I, on the other hand, am being the stale piece of popcorn; but, I am convinced you needed to hear this.
I will sum up with this, I believe the phrase "following Hillmann" is a misnomer. It should really be stated as, "I am adopting Hillmann." The impetice being on adopting. I firmly believe that the answers are in your DVD. Good luck.

Thanks for the reply. Contrary to what you believe, we have followed the program very closely and my pup is doing very well.

I try hard to keep our lessons balanced. We spend a tremendous amount of time walking on lead, which is what Hillmann calls it. My comment several weeks ago about the program not addressing "heel" was true, he almost never mentions "heel" in the puppy DVD, just "walking on lead", which could well amount to dragging or being dragged. I've watched hundreds of people who walk their dogs every day being dragged down the sidewalk. My point was that "walking on a lead" doesn't always morph into good leash manners and Hillmann doesn't spend much time discussing how to do so.

We have also worked on "hold" quite a bit. That is another thing that is mentioned in the puppy DVD but not given much weight in comparison to "chase something", "sit" and "walk on lead". This is something we will continue to work on more regularly as well to hopefully help with some of these mouthing issues.

I understand that these DVD training programs are not perfect and can't possibly cover every aspect of training, that is why I come here with questions as well.

 

[jwdavis]

Understood. For those that never "Force Fetch", how are these mouth habits addressed? I'm curious because I don't think Hillmann does FF in the "traditional manner" anymore. And I know that many other dogs are trained, especially in Europe, without Force Fetch as it is taught here.

Would it be a bad idea to work on "hold" with a fresh, small bird like a dove or pigeon? Don't let him retrieve it, just encourage him to hold it in his mouth under my supervision? (with no negative pressure of course)

They cull it out of their breeding programs. That's how they deal with it.

 

[MNHunter]

They cull it out of their breeding programs. That's how they deal with it.

So, it's believed that a hard mouth can be genetic? Forgive my ignorance on the matter, I just assumed that it was simply a personality trait or product of training more than anything.

 

[jwdavis]

It can be both. Hardmouth dogs tend to throw hardmouth pups. Some people inadvertently cause dogs that may be borderline to become hardmouthed. Some dogs are such butter mouths that you couldn't make them kill a bird if you tried. All depends and its tough to know what the cause is unless you have knowledge about the dog and how it was trained.

 

[truthseeker]

They cull it out of their breeding programs. That's how they deal with it.

MN:

Just blow this off. This issue has been a debate within the community for ever, Read what's in front of you and go on from there.

Keith

 

[jwdavis]

What do you do with a young dog that consistently kills traps Keith? What happens to a dog that kills a couple of traps in a Springer trial?