[BJGatley]

So, You'd prefer I don't come here, to the Retriever Training Forum, and ask training questions? Maybe I should just be a sarcastic jerk to everybody instead? How have you not been banned from this site?

Because I know the owner and the owner knows me. You on the other hand.....

 

[MNHunter]

Because I know the owner and the owner knows me. You on the other hand.....

That explains it. I knew there had to be a logical reason.

Now, if you'd be so kind, please refrain from sucking up bandwidth in anymore of my threads with your sarcastic posts, they reek of insecurity and make me uncomfortable.

 

[BJGatley]

Oh for Pete sake...Grow a pair...Your days might be number OK?

 

[Clintonb]

I must admit I do feel sorry for MNHunter who came to this thread for some practical training advice he needs but instead got completely railroaded with riddles from some people who have added NO value to the OP original question. Please stick in there MNHunter and I hope you find some gold nuggets amongst the piles of garbage regardless if they know the owner and the owners knows them.

 

[BJGatley]

I must admit I do feel sorry for MNHunter who came to this thread for some practical training advice he needs but instead got completely railroaded with riddles from some people who have added NO value to the OP original question. Please stick in there MNHunter and I hope you find some gold nuggets amongst the piles of garbage regardless if they know the owner and the owners knows them.

Come on....You need to grow a pair as well.

And the owners know him...
Maybe you are a troll in sheep's clothing and have nothing better to do to do John behind close doors.
Crazy as it sounds....but who knows.

 

[Clintonb]

Come on....You need to grow a pair as well.

And the owners know him...
Maybe you are a troll in sheep's clothing and have nothing better to do to do John behind close doors.
Crazy as it sounds....but who knows.

I'm still really confused by your comments? but I will not be responding any further to them.

All I was trying to do was get some real training answers for John, anyway.

 

[BJGatley]

I'm still really confused by your comments? but I will not be responding any further to them.

All I was trying to do was get some real training answers for John, anyway.

BS.... I call a spade a spade.
Still confused?

 

[freezeland]

Anytime I've ever done or talked to someone who did anything with a dog "just to see what he would do" ended up very poorly. That's not training, that's testing and testing an 8 month old dog is virtually always a bad idea. He had no idea what you expected him to do so the odds of it coming out right are astronomically low.

Get the cart behind the horse: get him properly conditioned on how to deliver a bird to hand.

MNHunter - KS_Hunting reply was not a sarcastic post. It was very honest and direct to the point. No it didn't include the "how to" if that is what you were after, but many others have given you the advice to get on the right footing.

You know your dog is a high prey drive, you know your dog loves birds, so now you need to learn how to control and channel those traits. What you are doing now is only encouraging bad habits that will have to be unlearned. The more they become engrained the harder time you are going to have rehabilitating your fine bred dog.

BJGately post that you took exception to was also not sarcastic. He was telling you the same thing I just did in a round about way.

Good luck with your dog.

 

[PDO]

Thanks for the criticism and for offering zero advice regarding my original question. Seems to be a theme around here sometimes. Gotta take the good with the bad I suppose.

In reference to your post, I'd say "it" came out very well IMO. He was excited by the sound of the shotgun, looked right where it was aimed and saw his first wild bird fall from the sky. He headed right for it and, after a difficult search in thick, tall grass, came out with the bird in his mouth. The only issue was that, in his excitement he gave it a pretty good working over and didn't deliver it right to hand as I'd have liked. But, overall I'd say it was a pretty positive experience for his first time seeing a wild bird shot from the sky. Now, every time he see a gun he's wild with excitement. I hardly think I've ruined him as some here would like to imply.

Maybe all expertly trained dogs first introductions to a live kill of a wild bird unfold as if in a training video and end in a perfectly heeled and gentle delivery to hand. I doubt it, but maybe. I know of many good hunting dogs who took many experiences to do as well as my pup did on his first try and I'm proud of him. I think he shows great promise and I have no doubt that he'll be a fantastic dog. I made the original post asking for advice about improving mouth habits without Force Fetch, that's all. But somehow it always seems to turn into a bash session.

That was actually some of the best advice in the thread...

As with most other of your other threads (and why they are often met with resistance), you are cherry picking what YOU want to hear and then defending it. When you (or me, or any other newbie) ask a question on RTF, you need to be prepared to take some gut shots. It is hard to swallow, but getting over your ego makes you a MUCH better trainer (i.e. look at the noisy dog thread! The OP trainer has taken a freaking public beating, but he listens and the dog looks to be making fantastic progress).

What would be best for the dog was not retrieving during teething, or a live shot dove in thick cover. Until hold and FF are complete, your specific dog should not handle birds. Every time he gets a bird, it will be a HABIT harder to break. At multiple points along the line you have already reinforced mouthy habits. No, it hasn't ruined your dog but it will be something you may have to work on for the rest of the dogs life.

If all you need is a duck dog, it is pretty hard to mess up and you are correct. The pup sounds birdy. Send him off to be FF by a pro and you will be done. But if your goals are higher and you want to continue training the dog, you are proceeding down the wrong path and you should find some hands on help. That is all people are trying to say. Start formal basics, lay off the birds, and find a group, a pro, or a few knowledgable training friends.

PO

 

[ks_hunting]

Thanks for the criticism and for offering zero advice regarding my original question.

My advice was:

get him properly conditioned on how to deliver a bird to hand

Let me clarify what that means. If you're looking for step by step advice on how to get him to accomplish such a task without the use of Force Fetch then the best place would be to start with some of the British trainers who don't use this technique. Robert Milner (former owner of Wildrose and current owner of Duckhill Kennels) has several books and videos as does Mike Stewart. If it would help, perhaps you could go to the Duckhill forum.

Best of luck with your training endeavors.

 

[behawley]

You need to FF immediately!

 

[mjh345]

And that is my purpose so that you don't waste bandwidth on this forum.
Now...train your damn dog and quit with the scenarios.

Me

Pot meet kettle regards

 

[MNHunter]

My advice was:



Let me clarify what that means. If you're looking for step by step advice on how to get him to accomplish such a task without the use of Force Fetch then the best place would be to start with some of the British trainers who don't use this technique. Robert Milner (former owner of Wildrose and current owner of Duckhill Kennels) has several books and videos as does Mike Stewart. If it would help, perhaps you could go to the Duckhill forum.

Best of luck with your training endeavors.

Thanks for the advice, I'll check out the links you provided.

It may be a bit lost in all the 'clutter' here but what I was trying to ask was if there was anything aside from force fetch that I could work on each day to help improve my pups mouth habits. I haven't decided yet whether I am going to follow the Hillmann "Fetch Command" style or Lardy's TRT Force Fetch so I wanted to keep trying to improve his mouth while I get a plan together for the next phase of Fetch training.

What I gathered here is that continuing to focus more on hold (with a bumper) will help and that I shouldn't attempt to work on hold with a dead bird which is what I'll do. I'll also begin collar conditioning to "Here" once I have a clear picture of how to do it correctly. Hillmann's direction to avoid the Here command until sit is extremely steady had me a bit gun shy to work to hard on it up until now.

Thanks again for the input!

 

[Clintonb]

In regards to a better hold ie less sloppy mouth prior to FF and even sometimes after FF what I have found myself to have worked very well is every evening while I am watching TV etc is just sit the pup in front of me on lead, put a bumper in the dogs mouth, tell him/her to HOLD and then just gentle remind the pup if it gets sloppy with a gentle tap under the chin.

Do this for 5mins every night until the pups mouth is still and you are not getting the mouthing.

Then progress to walking on lead around inside your house with the bumper in the dogs mouth again only 5mins every night reminding the pup for any sloppy mouth, once this is going well progress to outside heeling with the bumper in the mouth and reminding the pup for any sloppy mouth again.

I then repeat the whole process with a dead pigeon.


I have found this has significantly improved the sloppy mouth and bird handling issues and you will see a far better carriage of the bumper/bird in the field once you are ready for field work.

My 2 cents.

 

[bamajeff]

In regards to a better hold ie less sloppy mouth prior to FF and even sometimes after FF what I have found myself to have worked very well is every evening while I am watching TV etc is just sit the pup in front of me on lead, put a bumper in the dogs mouth, tell him/her to HOLD and then just gentle remind the pup if it gets sloppy with a gentle tap under the chin.

Do this for 5mins every night until the pups mouth is still and you are not getting the mouthing.

Then progress to walking on lead around inside your house with the bumper in the dogs mouth again only 5mins every night reminding the pup for any sloppy mouth, once this is going well progress to outside heeling with the bumper in the mouth and reminding the pup for any sloppy mouth again.

I then repeat the whole process with a dead pigeon.


I have found this has significantly improved the sloppy mouth and bird handling issues and you will see a far better carriage of the bumper/bird in the field once you are ready for field work.

My 2 cents.

I did this pretty much exactly, but I also added in positive reinforcement(praise and reward marking) when she held like I wanted. Early on, it was just a second, then gradually got longer. Tap under the chin for dropping and pressure on nose and chin with a 'hold' for mouthing/rolling. No pressure or force at all other than the light taps, and repeating 'hold'. My pup's hold was solid enough, she would have been ready for force fetch at 4 months old if she had adult teeth.

 

[MNHunter]

Never Mind

 

[colinSEA]

Hmm... I read the first few pages of post so maybe this was addressed later on... but...

I'm training my first hunt lab and have had some of the same questions you have posted about. I followed Hillman minus the early "puppy" Collar Conditioning. We transitioned into FF about 4 weeks ago and will likely start in on CC this week. I watched and read all the DVD's that get listed on this site, read a ton of books and the best advice that I decided to follow was go to a few hunt tests, talk to as many pro's I could, and get the one who is most willing to "train me to train my pup". With that said I joined the local HRC and have met some really great people. I drive 200 miles round trip (4 hrs ) once a week to visit my pro and every time I'm driving home I am so happy that I did. With that said I am married with no children other than the 3 dogs, a 7.5 month old BLM and 2 porch dogs. Feel free to take away whatever you want from my comments I hope that in some way they are helpful to you and your pup.

I was always under the impression that FF was to get the dog to fetch on command and correct all the mouth habits that develop. What I realize now after being corrected by a few helpful individuals is that FF really isn't about the get this thing in your mouth as much as its a precursor to learning how to properly deal with pressure. Seems like if you are going into TRT and TRM your going to need to put pressure on your dog and it was explained to me that there will be times that your dog does not want to go, go in the water, get out of the water, drive thru that cover, hit that point but stay in the water............ I was told that FF is the way that they learn that, no, we have to do this the right way, here is what I want, here is what happens if we don't do it right, here is how to get that pressure to stop/start.

I guess since it sounds like you are having trouble with mouth issues why not start on the road to FF with getting a solid hold and then going into a regular FF program with the help of a pro or an experienced amateur? Working with a one person (an expert) instead of a bunch of opinions really helped me have more confidence in myself and the way that I train, because I bought into his program and I let that supersede the DVD's and books and used the DVD's and books to assist in what we are working on. Best wishes for you and your pup.

 

[TBell]

Wow what a sad direction this thread took....BJ Gatley (whoever you are since I can't even find you on a people search on Entry Express so.....) bad on you!

MNHunter just wanted to know how to get his dog to stop chewing on a bird. Maybe nobody knows the answer, so they send you off to a pro?

You don't need a pro to help you train your own dog, so I made the following video for people who have dogs that have bad mouth habits.

https://youtu.be/8XXGULz65Wk

HOLD is the first command to learn when teaching the 'conditioned retrieve'. OUT is the second.

This video is the culmination of about a month's worth of work teaching in baby steps the HOLD command beginning with two fingers of a gloved hand. Anyone can do this in their yard or even living room.

It begins with very brief periods of holding, as in this video. It can be fun to teach too with a little patience!

https://youtu.be/p47umi_aPtk

 

[Thomas D]

Good video.

 

[John Gush]

Nice videos, Thanks Tammy!