[67632]

I have read much about operant conditioning and I get it. It also plays a big part in training for me, as does classical conditioning. However, and to simplify, instead of focusing on "if I don't do this, something bad happens" or "if I do this the bad thing stops." I focus on, "if I do this something good happens." And, sometimes, "if I don't do this, what I want to happen doesn't happen." What I end up getting is, "I want to do this -- in fact, I can't wait to do this!" versus "I have to do this."

There is really no such thing as 100% positive as positive trainers will withhold, which is technically negative. People say 100% positive. I have said it too, more to get a point across. I train 100% force-free, not 100% positive. It is working for us, our goals, where we want to be. We've had our bumps, thought them through, and fixed them easily. All training errors, of course.

 

[polmaise]

I have read much about operant conditioning and I get it. It also plays a big part in training for me, as does classical conditioning. However, and to simplify, instead of focusing on "if I don't do this, something bad happens" or "if I do this the bad thing stops." I focus on, "if I do this something good happens." And, sometimes, "if I don't do this, what I want to happen doesn't happen." What I end up getting is, "I want to do this -- in fact, I can't wait to do this!" versus "I have to do this."

There is really no such thing as 100% positive as positive trainers will withhold, which is technically negative. People say 100% positive. I have said it too, more to get a point across. I train 100% force-free, not 100% positive. It is working for us, our goals, where we want to be. We've had our bumps, thought them through, and fixed them easily. All training errors, of course.

Let us know when you are fixed ;-)

 

[captainjack]

Confused???
Sounds like you have it all figured out. Achieving all your goals easily. Why are you asking questions again?

 

[67632]

Confused???
Sounds like you have it all figured out. Achieving all your goals easily. Why are you asking questions again?

I just didn't understand the "pressure" that people were talking about.

I don't have it all figured out. So far, so good, but one never stops learning!

 

[bamajeff]

Confused???
Sounds like you have it all figured out. Achieving all your goals easily. Why are you asking questions again?

Agree...I thank she came here to enlighten us.

 

[Im_with_Brandy]

Hi there. New to the site; just a lurker on occasion. Also new to the sport. Have a question about use of the term "pressure" in field training and trying to understand what that means and the importance of it. I've never quite understood it and when I look it up online I read terms like "physical domination" and such. I have often heard people say "you need to teach a dog to turn off the pressure" and when I've asked what that means, I've never received an answer. Thanks!

Pressure is applied to the dog when you ask them to do something out side there confidence zone or their current ability, also when telling them to do something they don't want to do. This should be done after the dog understands the command and has been taught what to do. There are many ways to apply pressure the use of tools such as a leash, e-collar, healing stick, or FF device like toe hitch. Whistle commands are also pressure pressure to the dog. Denial of reward is a big one I use since I don't use e-collars in my training. Learning to turn off pressure means learning to be obedient to the command being given. In the case of FF when I give the dog the take command the dog should enthusiastically reach for the item and hold it in its mouth. As quickly as the dog puts the item in its mouth pressure is turned off and praise is given to the dog for obeying the command. With out pressure all your doing is asking the dog to obey the command. Through pressure the dog learns it must obey the command. All of my pups have been natural retrievers but I don't FF because they won't retrieve. I FF because its a bigger picture than just retrieving. It sets the tone for who is in charge and for being obedient to all the commands that I give.

So you base a lot of your training on attrition and reward. You also use denial of reward those are all great training tools. But keep in mind denial of reward is still pressure. The act of blowing a sit whistle is pressure. Making the dog be steady at the retriever line is pressure. Because the dog knows that if it doesn't do it you will take the reward away, thats pressure. Not everyone uses the same level of force training.

 

[1tulip]

Pressure is applied to the dog when you ask them to do something out side there confidence zone or their current ability, also when telling them to do something they don't want to do. This should be done after the dog understands the command and has been taught what to do. There are many ways to apply pressure the use of tools such as a leash, e-collar, healing stick, or FF device like toe hitch. Whistle commands are also pressure pressure to the dog. Denial of reward is a big one I use since I don't use e-collars in my training. Learning to turn off pressure means learning to be obedient to the command being given. In the case of FF when I give the dog the take command the dog should enthusiastically reach for the item and hold it in its mouth. As quickly as the dog puts the item in its mouth pressure is turned off and praise is given to the dog for obeying the command. With out pressure all your doing is asking the dog to obey the command. Through pressure the dog learns it must obey the command. All of my pups have been natural retrievers but I don't FF because they won't retrieve. I FF because its a bigger picture than just retrieving. It sets the tone for who is in charge and for being obedient to all the commands that I give.

Don't forget that the drive in the dog is THE biggest source of pressure! Guns go off, bird goes down... BOOM! The dog wants that! Denial is the most awfullest consequence in the world... the UNIVERSE... for Rocket Dog. More traumatic than anything I can deliver via the e-collar. It is so potent, we have to use it very carefully and then end up with something positive or her stress level just goes way up and not just for that day. She will remember that denial and get really anxious and crazy unless and until she is convinced she knows how to get that retrieve.

But I'm not sure where that fits in the operant conditioning thinger.

 

[Tony Marshall]

I am very supportive of any client that wants to leave a dog twice as long and spend twice as much money as well.

 

[lorneparker1]

Confused???
Sounds like you have it all figured out. Achieving all your goals easily. Why are you asking questions again?

I was thinking that exact thing...

 

[67632]

So you base a lot of your training on attrition and reward. You also use denial of reward those are all great training tools. But keep in mind denial of reward is still pressure. The act of blowing a sit whistle is pressure. Because the dog knows that if it doesn't do it you will take the reward away, thats pressure. Not everyone uses the same level of force training.

Oh yes, I agree! My confusion was in the use of the word pressure, but without examples or being able to explain it, and how it always, in my experience, went hand in hand with the FF.

 

[captainjack]

Oh yes, I agree! My confusion was in the use of the word pressure, but without examples or being able to explain it, and how it always, in my experience, went hand in hand with the FF.

In a force based training program, pressure begins before force fetch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XsZpdHal4Oo

Edit: that is the physical application of "pressure" from the lead and heeling stick begins with formal obedience.
The word "pressure", of course is far broader than this. The dog may feel pressure by simply looking at a long water entry, a tight marking set up, or a big water quad. Pressure is also cumulative.

 

[67632]

In a force based training program, pressure begins before force fetch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XsZpdHal4Oo

I'm not denying that. Typically the conversation starts when someone finds out I did not FF and then they tell me that without the FF my dog will not learn how to turn off pressure. They use those exact words, pretty much, but no one has ever been able to explain to me what they meant by pressure. So, the term has been lost on me, as though I was missing something I wasn't seeing.

 

[BJGatley]

In a force based training program, pressure begins before force fetch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XsZpdHal4Oo

Edit: that is the physical application of "pressure" from the lead and heeling stick begins with formal obedience.
The word "pressure", of course is far broader than this. The dog may feel pressure by simply looking at a long water entry, a tight marking set up, or a big water quad. Pressure is also cumulative.

In what way Glen...and I'm not trying to be an ass...

 

[BJGatley]

I'm not denying that. Typically the conversation starts when someone finds out I did not FF and then they tell me that without the FF my dog will not learn how to turn off pressure. They use those exact words, pretty much, but no one has ever been able to explain to me what they meant by pressure. So, the term has been lost on me, as though I was missing something I wasn't seeing.

It was pretty much showed to you early....

 

[bamajeff]

In a force based training program, pressure begins before force fetch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XsZpdHal4Oo

Edit: that is the physical application of "pressure" from the lead and heeling stick begins with formal obedience.
The word "pressure", of course is far broader than this. The dog may feel pressure by simply looking at a long water entry, a tight marking set up, or a big water quad. Pressure is also cumulative.

Agree especially with what's in bold. It's hugely important to arrange training to mix in lots of non-pressure situations between stressful training sessions(de-cheating, water blinds, no-no drills, etc). For instance if you are doing early blind work where there is lots of whistles, maybe some pressure to tighten up loopy sit, etc, it's imperative to throw in some factor free land and/or non-cheating water marks, splash marks out of a boat, etc where the dog just has to mark and retrieve with no pressure, chance of cheating, etc. You can harm a dog's attitude if you accumulate too much pressure on them. A confident dog runs with style and momentum. Too much pressure(even light pressure like attrition, whistles, recalls, etc) can erode both.

 

[mjh345]

Agree especially with what's in bold. It's hugely important to arrange training to mix in lots of non-pressure situations between stressful training sessions(de-cheating, water blinds, no-no drills, etc). For instance if you are doing early blind work where there is lots of whistles, maybe some pressure to tighten up loopy sit, etc, it's imperative to throw in some factor free land and/or non-cheating water marks where the dog just has to mark and retrieve with no pressure, chance of cheating, etc. You can harm a dog's attitude if you accumulate too much pressure on them. A confident dog runs with style and momentum. Too much pressure(even light pressure like attrition, whistles, recalls, etc) can erode both.

Very astute and well said

 

[BJGatley]

Agree especially with what's in bold. It's hugely important to arrange training to mix in lots of non-pressure situations between stressful training sessions(de-cheating, water blinds, no-no drills, etc). For instance if you are doing early blind work where there is lots of whistles, maybe some pressure to tighten up loopy sit, etc, it's imperative to throw in some factor free land and/or non-cheating water marks, splash marks out of a boat, etc where the dog just has to mark and retrieve with no pressure, chance of cheating, etc. You can harm a dog's attitude if you accumulate too much pressure on them. A confident dog runs with style and momentum. Too much pressure(even light pressure like attrition, whistles, recalls, etc) can erode both.

And that is different with each dog.

 

[captainjack]

I'm not denying that. Typically the conversation starts when someone finds out I did not FF and then they tell me that without the FF my dog will not learn how to turn off pressure. They use those exact words, pretty much, but no one has ever been able to explain to me what they meant by pressure. So, the term has been lost on me, as though I was missing something I wasn't seeing.

Maybe you are talking to the wrong people?
In this context (force fetch) pressure means the ear pinch, toe hitch, or whatever aversive you, the trainer, apply.

Learning to turn off pressure is not the end goal of force based training. It's just a step along the way to creating a reliable retriever that looks out at whatever is in front of him and says, bring it on. A retriever that will not quit when it's cold, he's tired, he's confused, etc.

 

[Breck]

The word "pressure", of course is far broader than this. The dog may feel pressure by simply looking at a long water entry, a tight marking set up, or a big water quad. Pressure is also cumulative.

.
Good post.

If one desires to get through an AA stake to still be playing to tackle a big water quad at the end, a dog unprepared to handle things when the going gets tough will never get there let alone have ability to do it better than the other dogs.
.
Re cumulative effects of pressure. This can raise it's head in number of ways such as dogs water blind performance deteriorating over time due to repetitive complex high pressure training or training too much on contrary setups or double staking dog 8 weeks in a row.
A dog that can play and handle pressure is great but knowing your dog and how to meter out the pressure such that they can continue to play long term takes some learnin'.

 

[BJGatley]

Maybe you are talking to the wrong people?
In this context (force fetch) pressure means the ear pinch, toe hitch, or whatever aversive you, the trainer, apply.

Learning to turn off pressure is not the end goal of force based training. It's just a step along the way to creating a reliable retriever that looks out at whatever is in front of him and says, bring it on. A retriever that will not quit when it's cold, he's tired, he's confused, etc.

And that happens early on when dog is a pup and understands you.