I notice my dog looking around when I give the cue which isn't a problem as far as I know. Does it help to give the cue when you are walking to the line so the dog gets earlier notice what to expect? Right now I have been doing it after I sit him. I have just been saying "dead'. Does 'dead bird' resemble "no bird' too much, apparently not? Is there a time to use one or another if someone uses both? I have started using 'no bird' on the honoring. I know that has some other uses. Is that typical?
Timing of dead bird cue
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I notice my dog looking around when I give the cue which isn't a problem as far as I know. Does it help to give the cue when you are walking to the line so the dog gets earlier notice what to expect? Right now I have been doing it after I sit him. I have just been saying "dead'. Does 'dead bird' resemble "no bird' too much, apparently not? Is there a time to use one or another if someone uses both? I have started using 'no bird' on the honoring. I know that has some other uses. Is that typical?
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In hunt tests blinds are mostly a part of a series that includes marks. In FT there are series that is just blinds. I have seen this in akc ht but only once. So I use the cue when the dog is sitting. Some times I run blinds first, sometimes after marks and other scenarios.
I use dead bird as a cue for blinds and no bird when honoring. Dogs understand the difference.
I didn't understand the looking around comment.
Seems every few months I get the head swings after the cue with my Rowdy. I view this as avoidance. I take a step forward, say here and Nick. Then it goes away for months.
I use dead bird as a cue for blinds and no bird when honoring. Dogs understand the difference.
I didn't understand the looking around comment.
Seems every few months I get the head swings after the cue with my Rowdy. I view this as avoidance. I take a step forward, say here and Nick. Then it goes away for months.
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Wagon wheels will help you & your dog focus & learn to move w/ you.
Thanks Wayne, this reassures me I only need to be saying the cue after he sits. It is just his eyeballs that are looking around. He is just trying to find the blind. He comes out of the crate in the truck looking around. It's not avoidance thankfully. It makes sense not to give the cue too soon, because then there would be less connection between the cue and the outcome. I just signed up to rent Rorem's Handling DVD. That may give me a model to study.
Thanks, I hope it fine tunes things. I am basically doing the eight bumper wagon wheel right now. I try to do the Lardy thing with using "here" and "heel". Sometimes when I want him to heel straight backwards, he will pivot to the left. I'd like to smooth that out so he knows when I want one, and when I want the other.
I'm glad it is something that we can come back to forever. I only did four bumpers in the beginning, and only recently got to eight after putting it on the back burner. It wasn't our forte.
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As others have said, the wagon wheel drill is a very good friend for teaching a dog to move with you and to get an initial line. I also agree with Wayne, the looking around is probably some form of bugging (avoidance) that could come from a number of factors, such as the dog is unsure of what to do or has had a previous bad experience.
To answer your original question on when to cue, I believe that the actual word you use is the least important cue you use on a blind or mark. I know Rex Carr very much believed in few words being spoken. The pro I train with has taught me a lot about differentiating between marks and blinds by voice inflection and line movements. As for voice inflection, he taught me that you give a dog permission to get a mark and you demand they get a blind. Also on the line, you cue a mark by not doing a lot of moving once the birds go down or on the return for multiple retrieves (you get the "first look") as Pat Burns describes. On blinds, especially mixed in with marks, you generally re-heel the dog as a cue. If a two-sided dog, sit them, then heel to the other side and line on the blind. If a one-sided dog, heel back a step and then forward and then line on the blind. These, in my opinion, are actions that a far more important than the dog understanding the word "dead" or "mark". That said, I do use the words after the dog sits, but only so I can use voice inflection on the words as a cue.
One more illustration on how this works on a different manner. Think of being on a honor. You may use the word "no" or "no bird" or "leave it" or something like that. But I bet the word is said forcefully or sternly and you probably (or should) use a different stance than when you are running the dog. I turn 90 degrees to the dog and look down at her eyes. Do you think the dog is cueing off of the word you said or the vocal inflection of the word and your different stance?
Hope this long-winded explanation helps you a bit....good training
To answer your original question on when to cue, I believe that the actual word you use is the least important cue you use on a blind or mark. I know Rex Carr very much believed in few words being spoken. The pro I train with has taught me a lot about differentiating between marks and blinds by voice inflection and line movements. As for voice inflection, he taught me that you give a dog permission to get a mark and you demand they get a blind. Also on the line, you cue a mark by not doing a lot of moving once the birds go down or on the return for multiple retrieves (you get the "first look") as Pat Burns describes. On blinds, especially mixed in with marks, you generally re-heel the dog as a cue. If a two-sided dog, sit them, then heel to the other side and line on the blind. If a one-sided dog, heel back a step and then forward and then line on the blind. These, in my opinion, are actions that a far more important than the dog understanding the word "dead" or "mark". That said, I do use the words after the dog sits, but only so I can use voice inflection on the words as a cue.
One more illustration on how this works on a different manner. Think of being on a honor. You may use the word "no" or "no bird" or "leave it" or something like that. But I bet the word is said forcefully or sternly and you probably (or should) use a different stance than when you are running the dog. I turn 90 degrees to the dog and look down at her eyes. Do you think the dog is cueing off of the word you said or the vocal inflection of the word and your different stance?
Hope this long-winded explanation helps you a bit....good training
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I think you are doing fine. Dogs look over the field when coming to line. The cue when he sits down dead is fine. He should then stop looking around. Eventually he will have to mix blinds and marks so heel him up and say dead. I used to switch sides to point out we are doing something different but now just reheel and say dead. My pro just reheels and they know but with a young dog best to give a cue.
That helps tremendously.
Thanks, I guess reheeling can be a more than just lining him up for the next task. Is it heeling him off of where he might be looking a substantially amount, then bringing him back closer to get the point across? Thanks for the assurance.
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When he is heeled, he should be still and looking ahead where the line is. Make sure his head and spine are pointed to the line of the blind. This takes some practice and in some cases have someone behind you. Thats where the wagon wheel comes in for drills. I say sit, even when he's sitting as a cue to not move the head. Don't rush that part. You can say sit several times with a young dog softly in other words, to key in. You can say "good" when he is looking correctly or "right there" and then send him. Other people may do it differently but I do tend to talk more to young dogs giving them reassurance and not to get the nervous bobblehead thing.
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It sounds to me like the confusion on the part of the handler. Dead bird is not the cue to lock in it is just the cue that the dog is about to be sent on a blind and not a mark. "Sit" should be the command given to lock in and "good", " that's it" or some variation to assure the dog they are looking in the right direction. Also the hand is not an aiming device. The dog should be locked in before the hand goes down. The hand should just let the dog know they are about to be sent. This can be tweaked using a single pile or visible white bumpers on wagon wheel. Also try running blinds in the field with no hand down for a short while on field work. You will see better initial lines develop and then you can add the hand back in. Use Wayne's tactic of scooting up or scooting up with a Nick to convince the dog from the line.
Thanks, I don't have an issue with bugging or avoidance before being sent.. I'm just thinking about the best way to train my dog and this helps.
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Let me tell you guys two problems I actually do have. Sometimes I can't get him to drive back on a vocal back cast.. The other thing is my lack of enforcing steadiness on marks. He just started cold blinds. Some of them would be called master level blinds.
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I do some vocals if I am not trying to get a direction change. I might try it on an over too to jog his memory. I'm not claiming to know exactly what I'm doing, I just don't have an avoidance issue currently, and never had one to speak of in his training. I do have have an interesting mess up I did.
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