[Tobias]

For those of you who's dogs sit, relaxed and stock-still at the command I'm sure this does seem like a non-issue. For those of us who's dogs vibrate with intensity and excitement at the slightest mention of training, it is something that merits discussion IMO.

I clicked on this thread because I too have a young dog who gets so excited when he sees his collar come out that he nearly does backflips. Although I'm sure he's trying to help me get his collar on, he's not a very good helper. Getting him to sit still enough to get it adjusted to the proper tightness is not easy and I don't want to beat him into submission right before heading out for a fun and positive training session. Can I get it on him? Yes. Can I do it without creating any stress or negativity (or an ass-whooping)? We're working on that

What I've been doing is simply sitting there for as long as it takes to get him settled. Every time he wiggles and thrashes about I pull back the collar, delaying the process that he's trying to speed up.

You are figuring out your dog's triggers. That is the first step... and you have begun dealing with them; that is the second step. Polmaise's post about triggers and dog behavior is really poignant and you would be well advised to read it several times thru.

 

[mjh345]

To those who want to make putting a collar on seem like brain surgery, I would suggest that if you don't have enough knowledge to figure how to put a collar on a dog,
YOU SURE SHOULDN"T BE USING AN ECOLLAR!!!!

 

[polmaise]

I would suggest that if you don't have enough knowledge to figure how to put a collar on a dog,
YOU SURE SHOULDN"T BE USING AN ECOLLAR!!!!

So you knew how to do it first time right off the bat' ? That's pure natural ability right there!

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Well yeah. Pre collar conditioning with my deceased dog Hudson, I was out of town a lot. I would have my wife put the ecollar on him once a day for 30 minutes or so. She has never trained a dog in her life. I just told her how tight to make the ecollar. She figured out the rest on her own.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Nice to know we aren't the only ones that find you full of yourself. Do you use the Bulls**t word there too to get attention? You don't have to over-analyze and micromanage to train a dog. Wasn't it Lardy that said he didn't need to know the quadrants to know what works.

I suggested a few pieces of kibble in your hand while putting a dog's collar on... rocket science I tell ya! rocket science!

 

[polmaise]

Well yeah. Pre collar conditioning with my deceased dog Hudson, I was out of town a lot. I would have my wife put the ecollar on him once a day for 30 minutes or so. She has never trained a dog in her life. I just told her how tight to make the ecollar. She figured out the rest on her own.

Yea, I get a few 'Horse Trainers' that have dogs and can't get ''heel'' right !?...Probably because those 'Horse trainers' have never 'broke' a horse ?..They get them 'ready made' already with a bridle and saddle ?......
Then they say they are 'Horse trainers' ?
Your wife may or may not be like the OP' ?...

 

[ErinsEdge]

I suggested a few pieces of kibble in your hand while putting a dog's collar on... rocket science I tell ya! rocket science!

If the handler can't figure out how to put a collar, adding kibble to the mix will probably lead to the dog jumping at his hands for kibble like in the clicker trainer video. Take the time to teach sit and sit means sit, not to screw around.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Poor Darren. Some disagree with him and it hurts.
Dude you are so full of yourself. This is a retriever training forum not a PetSmart training forum and like it or not training retrievers is different than teaching a PetSmart class. All anyone has done here is disagree with you when you make a huge issue out of putting a collar on a dog or teaching a dog to sit. Why are you getting so upset about this? Man pretty simple stuff but evidently it's something that requires a PHD in dog psychology. Again making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Pretty simple Steve - because there's more to training a dog than the "just follow the program" "I don't see the issue" "You didn't do your basics thoroughly enough" answers that are often given to people struggling with mundane tasks. I think you guys all know that but for whatever reason if my advice doesn't align with a program I'm wrong? I don't get it. Really, I keep coming back because I don't get why anyone would argue with a handful of kibble as an aid in putting a collar on a dog. It's pretty simple stuff really.

I'm not hurt by any of the comments you guys make about me personally. I study these things in minute detail so I can teach people who know literally nothing about a dog how to train one. I guess that makes me detail oriented and thorough? I don't know what the problem is. Trust me, it's not that I'm full of myself. I am constantly looking for mentors on certain things that I need help with. Putting a collar on a dog or sitting with handler in motion aren't on that list but there is plenty of stuff I need more experience/help with. In fact, if I were going to get into advanced retriever work I would need help with that. But we're not talking about advanced retriever work when we argue. We're talking about basic obedience, which is where I live 60 hours a week or so.

I keep telling myself you guys just don't see what I see on a regular basis if you're training half decently bred retrievers for field work. I don't quite know how to get that across to folks so they can understand WHY I view things the way I do and why any advice I give is detail oriented and sometimes technical.

Great example - I walk into a home with a single mom of two kids under 10 who has an American Bulldog puppy 12 weeks old. Puppy barks and backs away from me. When I turn my back he begins to advance. This is a typical reaction from a fearful dog. So, if you have every played with an American Bulldog you know they can be 60 lb of explosive power without much of a warning. They aren't always very clear headed and can do a lot of damage with a single bite. There I am with a fearful 12 week old puppy and a woman who loves him and has no clue she's sitting on a potential powder keg with two small kids running around. At that point, if I want to save the kids from getting bitten (or worse) and keep the dog alive, I had better have studied and know what the heck I'm doing. There's a lot more to raising this puppy than your normal happy go lucky retriever. Socialization is different and handling is very different. The need for lots and lots of positive experiences is obvious but it is much more pronounced than with a clear headed, emotionally stable dog. This lady has her work cut out for her and it's up to me to guide her properly. It's not simple by any stretch of the imagination. Pup is doing great after a couple of weeks but we will see what happens when he hits puberty. Hopefully the guidance I give will be technically sound, well thought out and thoroughly explained, so that she has a chance of succeeding.

Another great example is actually a 2 year old CLM. Very fearful dog and aggressive with strangers. Bit a buddy of mine from retriever club twice while he was busy "exerting his dominance" over the dog. Soft hearted owners with no clue at all how to work with a dog. When I walked in they were having a complete conversation in human terms with him about me being a friend.

This is the stuff I deal with every day. This is why I have studied and thought through these issues. This is why I have dog friendly and people friendly options available for solving problems.

I can't tell the average pet owner "you didn't teach him to sit right, here's a heeling stick... now, if he gives you any crap putting his collar on you say "sit" and slap him in the ass with it." People won't follow through on that instruction, period, end of story. It's my guess that some of the posters here who ask such basic questions fall into the same camp and benefit from some of these "dog friendly" approaches.

It would be nice though, if I could post them without having to take a lot of crap from you guys. Really, what have I ever posted that was harmful to a dog or owner?

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Darrin and Polmaise have one thing in common with my wife. I never get the last word in. Hahalol.

 

[DarrinGreene]

If the handler can't figure out how to put a collar, adding kibble to the mix will probably lead to the dog jumping at his hands for kibble like in the clicker trainer video. Take the time to teach sit and sit means sit, not to screw around.

You may be right in an isolated case Nancy, but having cupped a dog's chin with kibble in my hand about 100 times the last couple of years, that's not what usually happens. Once I have the e-collar on - sit means sit becomes one heck of a lot easier.

It's just a trick I use. That's all. I'm not sure why it drives people taking pot shots at me.

 

[polmaise]

If the handler can't figure out how to put a collar, adding kibble to the mix will probably lead to the dog jumping at his hands for kibble like in the clicker trainer video. Take the time to teach sit and sit means sit, not to screw around.

Yes ! ..But only if you with hold it ?..Now that would dumb?
Now what if you actually gave it immediately when the dog was actually 'sitting' ? ..Hmmm ?
You can 'screw around ' all you want .
That darn dawg that 'doesn't know sit' , Is gonna 'Sit' if it get's 'sit' right ...unless you 'screw around with it' ?
lol .
'Shaping behaviour' is Fun for someone like me ...
It's never actually getting the complete result , only the right part of the process to the 'end result' .

Dismissing the handler because they can't do what You can do is 'dismissive and darn right rude' !..adding that a tool such as kibble or any other is saying 'your way is the only way' ?..saying 'it will lead to' is like saying you have done this ?> Have you ?

 

[DarrinGreene]

For those of you who's dogs sit, relaxed and stock-still at the command I'm sure this does seem like a non-issue. For those of us who's dogs vibrate with intensity and excitement at the slightest mention of training, it is something that merits discussion IMO.

I clicked on this thread because I too have a young dog who gets so excited when he sees his collar come out that he nearly does backflips. Although I'm sure he's trying to help me get his collar on, he's not a very good helper. Getting him to sit still enough to get it adjusted to the proper tightness is not easy and I don't want to beat him into submission right before heading out for a fun and positive training session. Can I get it on him? Yes. Can I do it without creating any stress or negativity (or an ass-whooping)? We're working on that

What I've been doing is simply sitting there for as long as it takes to get him settled. Every time he wiggles and thrashes about I pull back the collar, delaying the process that he's trying to speed up.

If you put it on and off him a few times a day and DON'T give any rewards immediately afterward... he will not get so excited about you putting it on.

As an example: I routinely have people record and "ring" their door bell while their puppies are focused on eating... Doesn't take long and they don't get all agitated about the door. When there's no exciting person attached, suddenly, you don't get the "over the top" reaction anymore. They usually run to their food bowl instead! Same as the old "cap gun while their eating" routine people have used for decades to create positive associations to gun fire.

I have them let pup drag a leash around a lot too. Prevents it from becoming a signal for a (exciting) walk. Long run, makes it much easier to get on and off.

Simple stuff. Just requires a little forethought.

 

[ErinsEdge]

Lots of time to learn how to sit before the e-collar starts going on. I'm not into using treats other than with young pups for here, sit. I don't want the pups to be concentrating on my hands when learning new tasks anticipating a treat. The retrieve has long replaced the treat before the e-collar starts going on, and they are sitting to put the puppy collar on with the check cord when they are baby pups. I'm not training other peoples dogs that are screwed up, I'm training my own.

 

[polmaise]

Lots of time to learn how to sit before the e-collar starts going on. I'm not into using treats other than with young pups for here, sit.

Think that's what the OP ' is at ?
So what you do after is superfluous to what the OP does at this stage .

 

[DarrinGreene]

Lots of time to learn how to sit before the e-collar starts going on. I'm not into using treats other than with young pups for here, sit. I don't want the pups to be concentrating on my hands when learning new tasks anticipating a treat. The retrieve has long replaced the treat before the e-collar starts going on, and they are sitting to put the puppy collar on with the check cord when they are baby pups. I'm not training other peoples dogs that are screwed up, I'm training my own.

Same here with my personal dogs Nancy.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Polmaise do you understand the level of the training cycle this dog is in? I would suggest that you look at some of the OPs previous posts.
He was talking about nicking the dog with ecollar last March. So has he been putting the collar on and off for 9 months or more?
Opps. He started ecollar conditioning in Nov 2014. So he has been putting ecollar off and on for over a year.
Maybe that's why some of us have been a little short.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Maybe if he'd have followed the program better ... :razz:

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Yes, I think that is true.

 

[DL]

Polmaise do you understand the level of the training cycle this dog is in? I would suggest that you look at some of the OPs previous posts.
He was talking about nicking the dog with ecollar last March. So has he been putting the collar on and off for 9 months or more?
Opps. He started ecollar conditioning in Nov 2014. So he has been putting ecollar off and on for over a year.
Maybe that's why some of us have been a little short.

The heeling stick seems to be the best thing for my issue. Saying "no" or "quiet" or "Sit straight" and correcting for that is not as good as just saying "sit" and using the stick. Now I know. Another lesson learned. One step closer to greatness. Thanks.

 

[sandcastles451]

“MNHunter” For those of you who's dogs sit, relaxed and stock-still at the command I'm sure this does seem like a non-issue. For those of us who's dogs vibrate with intensity and excitement at the slightest mention of training, it is something that merits discussion IMO.

MNHunter, great point, and perhaps there are other people with the goal of creating a dog that vibrates with intensity and excitement, others who are are just trying to bottles what they have when appropriate,while stoking the fire otherwise. Some of the goals of a hunter might differ from a trial dog or a pet that retrieves in a park but we all share some fundamental common goals. Most of us share a common goal for an On/OFF Switch to different degrees of intensity and control.

The art is knowing what science, applied precisely when all along the puppies/dogs life creates not only the immediate desired behavior,but lays foundation and groundwork for what you might be asking the dog to learn even years later. None of us are perfect at either the art or the science, but a good, consistent, informed attempt and our dogs forgive us!

Lurker,since this was just after my comment
“The guy just wanted some simple advice from a board where he thought he might get it. As a new member, makes me second guess asking a question. I am sure he can do without all the sarcasm. “
Me,
OH,boy, how did I miss all this....must have been because I was off affixing a leather collar. I really thought the clicker training would help the process go more smoothly...... My wife thought otherwise.....
I'm all for helping the original poster and this wasn't in any way directed at him. This was a not so subtle (to some) remark that dogs are very complex, intelligent, perceptive individuals, in many ways as much as a human, and kibble and clickers are not a be all panacea for solving all training and behavioral issues. They can work for some, and some impressive results kibble esp with young pups) and shaping certain behaviors, but no amount of clicker training will cause my wife to laugh at my same stupid joke, over and over. (or really.. do those other things she's not in the mood to do!!)

Darrin”The only reason out English/Scottish friends get away with posting is...... rather simple......they have something (very occasionally!!)to offer like polmaise's post #62 or his video post in another thread of using a clicker as his personal choice to shape some behaviors (although I'd enjoy if he shared what % of his training involved that specific tool and what % involved a simple verbal marker or a caring touch)

Polmaise,62# awesome, many of us do similar with young pups and I'm glad you took the time to explain it and detail the steps in a useful wayothers can decide/or not to try, maybe depending on the individual dogs needs.

Darrin, For me at least it's not simply about a little kibble.....Darrin “2.Never understand the psychological details of what you're preaching -just follow the program.” To me, this theme has been reflectivef many of your comments in this and other threads.

And again
Darrin“3. Ignore and/or openly chastise any advice given that does not align with your beliefs system (as defined by Lardy or Hillman). Lardy didn't define it, certainly he tweaked, but more importantly he organized it in a way and made it accessible so a regular person could implement it, and even use it if they later decide they desired a pro retriever trainer. Many others also offer similar good ones.

You say we don't understand the Psychological details. The call on whether or not and to what amount this dog needs to be trained in a process, versus the dog needs to actually learn the bigger picture is key to this dog's long term success if the OP wants a well rounded retriever. The dog needs both. I don't pass judgment on Polmaise's IMO excellent technique for a young dog. Versus how someone else handles another older dog. This dog has an issue, a hole in it'straining bigger than just a collar, There is no concrete answer to address both the immediate and foundations for the future, but as I'd imagine this owner won't be happy simply conquering this collar issue , IMO it's time to incorporate both.