[Gauge123]

I know this has been discussed a thousand times. But I wanted to share my experience.

Having CC'd and FF'd, I decided it is time to begin pile work. Storm has never seen more than two bumpers in the yard and they were 180 degrees apart.

So, we air, do some basic OB and get excited. She is told to heel and I toss 3 bumpers out (not far away). "Back"... She darts out picks up bumper 1 and runs to bumper 2.
She spits out bumper 1 and grabs bumper 2 and I can see tell is going to go for bumper 3.
I see we have a problem and command "here", but the bumpers are only about 3-4 feet apart so she quickly spits bumper 2 out and scoops up bumper 3 and comes to me. The whole thing takes 3 seconds.

So... I put a lead on her and set up again.
"Back"... She jets out and scoops up bumper 1. When she faints toward bumper 2, I command "here" and gently pull the rope.
SURPRISE! She spit the bumper out and darted to my side.
Whoops! That wasn't the response I wanted.
I take her back to the bumper and command "fetch" she grabs it. "Hold", "Heel" and I lead her back to the starting point.

Let's do this again... Exact same results.
Now I know, she is not associating the "here, tug" with "grab the first one and get back to me".

I don't want to do that again, so (let go of the rope) I spread the bumpers 15 feet apart and line her up on the last bumper thrown.
"Back".........."Back".... My first ever refusal.

Commanding her to come back to me (here, tug) when I have sent her to retrieve has confused her.

I picked up all but 1 bumper.
"Back"...hesitation... and then she bolted.
We went on to make a dozen SINGLE retrieves just to shake off this new confusion.

I apologized to her for being stupid and vowed to not make that mistake again nor offer that advice.

 

[Tobias]

did you say 'no' at any point?

All this is is confusion, so simplifying is the best solution.
Taking her back to what she knows and introducing the tug on the collar might be beneficial.

How about walking fetch with one bumper and with a line on her flat collar? Walk her at heel, drop the bumper behind you and go a few more steps, turn around, cut the distance in half to the bumper, command 'back' and as she retrieves the bumper, apply a gentle tug with here command and turn 180 degrees walking away from her til she is at your side. Repeat.

 

[Peter G Lippert]

So... I put a lead on her and set up again.
"Back"... She jets out and scoops up bumper 1. When she faints toward bumper 2, I command "here" and gently pull the rope.
SURPRISE! She spit the bumper out and darted to my side.
Whoops! That wasn't the response I wanted.
I take her back to the bumper and command "fetch" she grabs it. "Hold", "Heel" and I lead her back to the starting point.

Let's do this again... Exact same results.

Did you do stick fetch? Mike Lardy says it is not necessary but is a good test on how well the pup is FF. He goes on to say its acts like a distraction during FF that can show if she is getting the concept. As I understand it shows that dog that no matter what is going on around them or what pressure they are getting having a bumper in their mouth is what is expected.

 

[Breck]

Do not worry about puppy shopping pile. Simply encourage return. Avoid No or other pressure at pile or in area of a mark.
Enforce basics Go, Stop, Come but just starting pile work ignore the shopping thing. Puppy = maintain happy happy attitude.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

You didn't say how old dog is or if you are following a program. Different ways to deal with the problem.
DL Walters (not Richard) says to ignore for a while
Lardy teaches as part of simple casting to not shop
Graham teaches as a ladder drill to not shop.

So, I guess the answer depends. I have done it all three ways as shown above but I think the Lardy method worked best for me.

 

[Gauge123]

I didn't do stick fetch. I have never done stick fetch. In my younger (less patient) days it would have been a bad idea for me to have a stick.

Breck - I think your right. In the past if the dog shopped the pile, It was never very much and they soon stopped as we progressed. I just thought I'd stop it from the very beginning. I will probably build back up to pile work and not make a fuss over shopping unless I have too.

Wayne - I've trained for years using Lardy. I have had this girl on Hillman's program. (I'm the old dog learning new tricks).

 

[Catechumen]

This is probably a stupid question, but why is shopping the pile a big deal? I understand from a training perspective that it is an annoyance, but are there potential issues that translate to FT/HT? I've never quite understood the importance of preventing it, but I figure some of you with more experience can explain.

 

[Tobias]

Diversion birds come to mind.

That and the dog needs to obey the command ad given, which is to retrieve a bumper and deliver to hand. Not pick up up, drop, pick up, drop, pick up, drop. It could become an avoidance behavior.

 

[captainjack]

This is probably a stupid question, but why is shopping the pile a big deal? I understand from a training perspective that it is an annoyance, but are there potential issues that translate to FT/HT? I've never quite understood the importance of preventing it, but I figure some of you with more experience can explain.

It's a refusal. Refusals are unacceptable. Get the first bumper you come to, come back.

 

[T-Pines]

I have had this girl on Hillman's program. (I'm the old dog learning new tricks).

I am interested in Hillmann discussions and would like to try to help you. Are you interested in my help?

Jim

 

[DarrinGreene]

I wonder if the program makes a difference? In Lardy by the time you get here the dog should know, or have the foundation skills to pick up the first one or handle being called in with pressure without abandoning the task (fetching). Pretty sure that's where Glen's answer is based.

Is that the same for Hillman? Never did pure Hillman so don't know.

I would think you want it corrected. I have with every one I've done and have seen some dogs with control problems get their butts in line when this was addressed.

 

[captainjack]

I wonder if the program makes a difference? In Lardy by the time you get here the dog should know, or have the foundation skills to pick up the first one or handle being called in with pressure without abandoning the task (fetching). Pretty sure that's where Glen's answer is based.

Is that the same for Hillman? Never did pure Hillman so don't know.

I would think you want it corrected. I have with every one I've done and have seen some dogs with control problems get their butts in line when this was addressed.

Yes there that's where my answer is based. The only difference is at that initial stage to stop them with a rope and ear pinch to fetch if necessary. I would not recall with a correction.

Agree that it aids in control in the big picture.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Yes there that's where my answer is based. The only difference is at that initial stage to stop them with a rope and ear pinch to fetch if necessary. I would not recall with a correction.

Agree that it AIDS in control in the big picture.

I've see it used (and used it) as a first step to cleaning up a dog's handling. Certainly not the end all be all, gets the ball rolling in the right direction though, as you mentioned Glen.

I don't like leaving outright bad habits to form in any process (retriever or otherwise). Accuracy is one thing, right? As in momentum in early blinds vs. perfect casting, but something this simple ought to be addressed and as I recall the program calls for it to be addressed.

 

[T-Pines]

I wonder if the program makes a difference? In Lardy by the time you get here the dog should know, or have the foundation skills to pick up the first one or handle being called in with pressure without abandoning the task (fetching). Pretty sure that's where Glen's answer is based.

Is that the same for Hillman? Never did pure Hillman so don't know.

I would think you want it corrected. I have with every one I've done and have seen some dogs with control problems get their butts in line when this was addressed.

I would say it's not the same for Hillmann, based upon my interpretation of the brief description given by the OP.

The OP admitted to making a mistake and did not place accountability with the dog. I commend him for that. I'm really not sure EXACTLY how he plans to proceed. I'd be interested to hear the OP's reasoning (in terms of Hillmann principles) for what he feels he did right, what he feels he did wrong, and the Hillmann principles he is going to apply in addressing this going forward.

I was hoping to generate a Hillmann discussion from the OP's experience that was a little less focused on mechanics -- not the usual dictation of WHAT to do ... and more focused on the Hillmann principles that are relevant to the situation -- the WHY and the WHY NOT.

Jim

Edited to add:

Maybe not such a difference here between Lardy and Hillmann. You said:

In Lardy by the time you get here the dog should know, or have the foundation skills to pick up the first one or handle being called in ...

Perhaps your reply and Glen's reply assumed the dog was farther along than it actually is.

I think it is pretty clear from the OP that his dog has been taught very little about multiple bumpers. So, the Hillmann approach involves much more teaching by isolating and creating success, praise, reinforce, practice ... then combine into a sequence of other perfected behaviors. The Hillmann approach is not based in teaching with pressure and correction.

 

[DarrinGreene]

The Hillmann approach is not based in teaching with pressure and correction.

Neither is Lardy! That said, by the time a dog is running to a pile he has been through walking fetch, possibly stick fetch and fetch/no fetch, so he should have the requisite skills to transition easily into a multi bumper pile and be taught not to shop.

As Glen mentioned, there is a specific way of dealing with this (that I got incorrect) within the program. It's a common thing that crops up. I would think Bill addresses it somewhere in his material.

Bill's solution is what I was looking for.

 

[T-Pines]

Neither is Lardy! That said, by the time a dog is running to a pile he has been through walking fetch, possibly stick fetch and fetch/no fetch, so he should have the requisite skills to transition easily into a multi bumper pile and be taught not to shop.

As Glen mentioned, there is a specific way of dealing with this (that I got incorrect) within the program. It's a common thing that crops up. I would think Bill addresses it somewhere in his material.

Bill's solution is what I was looking for.

My opinion is that the OP did not follow the Hillmann process leading up to pile intro. The dog was very clear about telling the OP several skills he does not know yet (anyone care to list them?). Perhaps the requisite teaching has begun, but no where near ready to advance to the point where the problem was encountered.

Mistakes happen. No big deal. No damage. But the damage comes from hacking away at the lesson you want to work on. Instead, thank the dog for telling you where your teaching has fallen short and go back to that point and finish the job of teaching it. And then practicing success countless times with tiny, incremental advancement.

Jim

 

[DarrinGreene]

I remember a very accomplished young dog trainer asking me once "what do you do when a dog flares the line (in pile/pattern work)? My answer - do everything you can to prevent it... He said you can do that but it's going to happen sooner or later, so what then?... answer - move up

What does Bill say about the inevitable event that is shopping the pile?

 

[Furball]

Not a big deal, really common.
I have a step in my FF where the dog has to fetch on command while being restrained with the leash. (just one bumper) They figure out they have to pull through the tension to retrieve. Within a session or two I have them dragging me to the bumper. Not a bad idea to go back and teach your pup this.

When she understands the leash pressure, start with two bumpers instead of three. Put them a few feet apart. Send her, when she gets to the first bumper, "here" and pull on the leash just like you did. If she drops that bumper, just restrain her from retrieving (with the leash), walk up and ear pinch to the bumper she dropped, then pull her away from the pile with the leash (bumper in mouth). Praise, praise, fun bumper. A few times of this she'll understand to snatch the first one she comes to.

I am sympathetic that shopping the pile is not a huge deal in the long run. But why start out with a problem when you can easily fix it. Think of it as a proof of your force fetch. If she's dropping the bumper she doesn't understand her job, now's your opportunity to get her to understand it better. Best of luck.

 

[captainjack]

My opinion is that the OP did not follow the Hillmann process leading up to pile intro. The dog was very clear about telling the OP several skills he does not know yet (anyone care to list them?). Perhaps the requisite teaching has begun, but no where near ready to advance to the point where the problem was encountered.

Mistakes happen. No big deal. No damage. But the damage comes from hacking away at the lesson you want to work on. Instead, thank the dog for telling you where your teaching has fallen short and go back to that point and finish the job of teaching it. And then practicing success countless times with tiny, incremental advancement.

Jim

Just a point of clarification...

I did not respond to the op because I couldn't understand where his dog was in the process, or even what the process was.

I responded to another member who asked why you would care about the dog shopping, or something to that effect.

I think the op would be wise to take you up on your offer to help with the Hillmann method.

 

[Tim Carrion]

Do not worry about puppy shopping pile. Simply encourage return. Avoid No or other pressure at pile or in area of a mark.
Enforce basics Go, Stop, Come but just starting pile work ignore the shopping thing. Puppy = maintain happy happy attitude.

Agree. Pick your battles . Shopping is an annoyance. Playing at the pile is a lack of focus and can usually be solved with a "hold" "here" command. "Piles" exist as a training convenience. They do not exist in hunting, HTs or FTs

Tim.