[Birddog70]

Hi all,

I am currently in the process to Force Fetch my 3 year old lab. Her earlier training went well, however, during the last hunting season I noticed she was "picky" sometimes as to grabbing a few birds (from land) and return to hand. She was 100% with her water retrieves fortunately (although not too hand, drops after coming out of water most times). She is also selective when training on retrieving bumpers, she will retrieve one specific bumper but decide only to get that one and not any other I throw. This has made it difficult to proceed in any further training.

Initially I started the FF program using Tom Dokken's process of pressure on/off. My dog wasn't taking to it very well. As I read more about FF'ing, most seem to agree to teach the dog HOLD first, then proceed to the actual FF pressure (ear pinch) training. NOTE: I did build a FF table.

I'm taking a step back and using HOLD training program by Freddy King. I started with the glove in mouth, which my dog will take and hold without fighting for a long period of time. I just started to move to using a PVC pipe wrapped in Duct Tape. My dog will "hold" the dowel in her mouth (5 min) without trying to spit it out, however, I noticed she is basically balancing the item in her mouth and doesn't have her top teeth down on the dowel. So here is my question: Before I move to the next step (FF w/ear pinch) do I need to ensure she is actually holding the dowel firm (or with some pressure) in her mouth or the fact that she will let it sit in her mouth without spitting out good enough to move forward? I don't want to move on if she really doesn't have the hold concept.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Dave

 

[DarrinGreene]

The dog has 3 years practice not reliably fetching - patience required.

Did you do pressure on/pressure off obedience training or are you introducing the concept with the HOLD command?

 

[Birddog70]

I used some pressure on/off with the leash (not collar) with Dokken's videos but the training didn't get too far since I let her get a bad habit of not retrieving everything I put out there. The HOLD method I'm using from Freddy King doesn't have pressure like an ear pinch, just pressure to open mouth (which my dog does) and pressure to keep the mouth closed over the dowel. The Ear Pinch doesn't come in until I start using the FETCH command.

This is my first time training a Retriever so some of the concepts are new too me. My prior dog was a GSP with tons of natural ability so she didn't require that much extensive training to perform very well in the field.

 

[PDO]

Being able to do hold with a bumper while doing some basic heeling and OB. Hold doesn't have to be perfect before starting force, but it needs to be very solid and accept/comfortable with the bumper for a period of time.

You may find it useful to get a couple of other video resources so you can see multiple dogs go through FF to see different examples of what you may encounter. I found that helpful when FF my first dog.

 

[DarrinGreene]

You really ought to seek some in person help with a dog this age if you've never done this before. If there's a retriever club nearby, I would look into it.

There are a bunch of ways to get this process going. Everything from what you're doing to clicker training (yes clicker training) can be employed. Some creativity with a 3 yo might be required.

I asked about pressure on/pressure off in OB because it would really help the dog to understand that "compliance releases pressure" with some known commands, like sit and come, before you introduce it with something new like "hold".

Just my philosophy - many retriever training programs actually introduce the "pressure/release" concept with the "hold" command. I just think it goes a lot easier if the dog already understands the reinforcement method and only has to learn the behavior we want. Trying to teach new behavior with a new reinforcement method just adds stress to the situation, if you ask me.

We always say "never use pressure to reinforce a command the dog doesn't know". That all goes out the window in a lot of programs when we get to the hold/ff routine.

 

[bamajeff]

You really ought to seek some in person help with a dog this age if you've never done this before. If there's a retriever club nearby, I would look into it.

There are a bunch of ways to get this process going. Everything from what you're doing to clicker training (yes clicker training) can be employed. Some creativity with a 3 yo might be required.

I asked about pressure on/pressure off in OB because it would really help the dog to understand that "compliance releases pressure" with some known commands, like sit and come, before you introduce it with something new like "hold".

Just my philosophy - many retriever training programs actually introduce the "pressure/release" concept with the "hold" command. I just think it goes a lot easier if the dog already understands the reinforcement method and only has to learn the behavior we want. Trying to teach new behavior with a new reinforcement method just adds stress to the situation, if you ask me.

We always say "never use pressure to reinforce a command the dog doesn't know". That all goes out the window in a lot of programs when we get to the hold/ff routine.

I agree with you Darrin. I like to CC my dogs before FF. I CC to HERE very early for safety reasons and then the other commands once obedience is solid.

 

[Birddog70]

All helpful replies, thank you.

Are there any other training methods for HOLD or FF you would recommend? I tried to read up on several and currently thought Freddy King video series seem pretty good. I may mix in some of the points on FF from Dokken as well depending on how the dog handles the training.

So would the consensus be that I continue to work with my dog on HOLD until she will more firmly keep the dowel in her mouth vs just accepting it and "balancing" it in her mouth?

I'm in no rush, want to continue her training after FF so I want to ensure I get it right.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[bamajeff]

All helpful replies, thank you.

Are there any other training methods for HOLD or FF you would recommend? I tried to read up on several and currently thought Freddy King video series seem pretty good. I may mix in some of the points on FF from Dokken as well depending on how the dog handles the training.

So would the consensus be that I continue to work with my dog on HOLD until she will more firmly keep the dowel in her mouth vs just accepting it and "balancing" it in her mouth?

I'm in no rush, want to continue her training after FF so I want to ensure I get it right.

Thanks,

Dave

I proof the HOLD by tapping on the ends of the bumper or pulling gently on it. Giving a slight correction(verbal NO and tap under the chin) if they drop. If the hold is good when I do this, I mark with GOOD and give a reward(treat). I do my hold training when they are puppies, so you may choose not to use treats. I would also, make sure hold is solid(doesn't have to be perfect, but real solid) before moving to FF. It will make the process smoother.

 

[BJGatley]

Hi all,

I am currently in the process to Force Fetch my 3 year old lab. Her earlier training went well, however, during the last hunting season I noticed she was "picky" sometimes as to grabbing a few birds (from land) and return to hand. She was 100% with her water retrieves fortunately (although not too hand, drops after coming out of water most times). She is also selective when training on retrieving bumpers, she will retrieve one specific bumper but decide only to get that one and not any other I throw. This has made it difficult to proceed in any further training.

Initially I started the FF program using Tom Dokken's process of pressure on/off. My dog wasn't taking to it very well. As I read more about FF'ing, most seem to agree to teach the dog HOLD first, then proceed to the actual FF pressure (ear pinch) training. NOTE: I did build a FF table.

I'm taking a step back and using HOLD training program by Freddy King. I started with the glove in mouth, which my dog will take and hold without fighting for a long period of time. I just started to move to using a PVC pipe wrapped in Duct Tape. My dog will "hold" the dowel in her mouth (5 min) without trying to spit it out, however, I noticed she is basically balancing the item in her mouth and doesn't have her top teeth down on the dowel. So here is my question: Before I move to the next step (FF w/ear pinch) do I need to ensure she is actually holding the dowel firm (or with some pressure) in her mouth or the fact that she will let it sit in her mouth without spitting out good enough to move forward? I don't want to move on if she really doesn't have the hold concept.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Dave

Pick your battles...
I would say that your next dog... yes.
Think about it.... just saying.

 

[hillsidegoldens]

I agree with post #8 if you want a firm hold tap the end of dowel if it falls place back but in mouth to show dog what is expected at first when dog knows what's expected then make corrections.

 

[captainjack]

Are there any other training methods for HOLD or FF you would recommend? I tried to read up on several and currently thought Freddy King video series seem pretty good. I may mix in some of the points on FF from Dokken as well depending on how the dog handles the training.

A novice trainer trying to mix several different training methods together is no different than a novice cook trying to piece together a meal from several different recipes. Better off following one if you want something edible.

With that said, Mike Lardy's TRT is a better recipe in my opinion. Very simple method. All you need is a 2" plastic bumper, flat buckle collar, choke chain and lead. No tables, pvc pipes, or duct tape. The pvc pipe with duct tape may not be pleasant to hold especially if less than 2" diameter and 5 minutes is unnecessary.

In addition to learning the steps of training, with Lardy's material you will learn about an overall approach and philosophy to training. This is, IMO, what separates his program.

So would the consensus be that I continue to work with my dog on HOLD until she will more firmly keep the dowel in her mouth vs just accepting it and "balancing" it in her mouth?

I would work for a more solid hold. This may be easier to get if you move to the 2" soft plastic bumper. Otherwise just be patient and when she drops it 100 times once you try to move her or tap on the end, just pick it back up an put it back in 101 times. This is very well illustrated in TRT.

Lastly, it was mention above about reinforcing the unknown command with the use of pressure going out the window with ff. I don't think of the application of pressure in ff as reinforcing the unknown command. People get into the science of learning theory or whatever and it confuses the issue for many. But pressure on pressure off may not be any better. The way i view it is simply apply pressure with ear pinch that is uncomfortable and then immediately put the bumper into the dogs mouth and immediately release the pressure. There is no expectation on the dog at this stage. The trainer is doing all of the work. Your timing is absolutely critical here and throughout ff. With great timing, and a reasonably intelligent dog, a few pepetitions of this and the dog will start to reach a short distance (2-3") for the bumper because she is beginning to learn that the bumper in the mouth = no pinch, bumper not in mouth = pinch. The reason you need a pretty solid hold is so that your dog can enjoy the success of holding after its in her mouth. So are increasing the holding by adding pressure? Are you decreasing the dropping by adding pressure? Someone out there can tell us, but it doesn't matter whether it's positive reinforcement or positive punishment, or something else entirely. As long as you know how to apply it, you'll be fine.

The key point about pressure on an unknown command is that you aren't expecting the dog to do anything in response to the pressure, you are doing the work. It is the contrast between the episodes of pressure and no pressure that teaches the dog, it is not the pressure itself.

 

[Birddog70]

Great input, thank you. Makes sense mixing programs for my experience level is most likely not the smartest path. I'll stick with the training program I've already started (Freddy King videos) with the Table, PVC pipe w/duct tape, etc, and she is taking well too it, however, I'll read Mike Lardy's approach for better education on the topic.

During my recent training HOLD sessions on the table I've been focusing more on my dog holding the dowel more firmly (vs just balancing in her mouth) and she has been responding well to a firmer grasp. I plan to continue this approach until she is constant with her hold on this item. My next step would then to introduce additional items for her to hold firmly (paint roller, larger/heavier dowel, dowel with wings attached) -- should I introduce the bumper or training dummy at this stage or wait till FF? The program I am following does not take the dog to ground until after the FF has started, however, I did read most recommend taking the HOLD command to the ground while performing basic commands (Sit, Heel) before starting FF -- again guess this would be mixing programs but want to ensure a logical approach for the dog as I move forward. I am not in a hurry to accomplish any task, especially since she is 3 years old and learned bad habits.

 

[PDO]

The big problem with mixing programs is a lack of understanding which ultimately leads to problems with consistency among many others. There are some good examples of training in the King youtube videos, and there are some things I would do differently. There is not a lot of philosophy and understanding about why each step or thing you do is important--they youtube videos are just the bare bones what each step looks like.

For example, ask yourself the question of the table's purpose. What does it do for the dog? Maybe it can help hold down an unruly dog. But mainly, its purpose is for the trainer's back. How many times will you have to have your dog hop up on a table and fetch a duck? Thus the question of whether it is important to FF the dog on a table ultimately boils down to the trainer's personal preference on how they want their knees to feel. The big benefit to the Lardy program is that a lot of this type of thing is talked about.

Really, you should be asking the purpose question for everything you do--about the dowel and duct tape, bumper, why you are working on hold. Understanding that really makes training much easier--and is probably the hardest thing to attain when you are just beginning. Because once you REALLY understand why you are working on hold, then you start to understand when you can move on and what you have to achieve.

Lots of flowery stuff here, but I think this is really the biggest road block. I have only been dog training for 3 years, and I still have to do LOTS of investigating about why I am doing what I am doing everyday. So by all means, follow a program. Better yet, really understand each step in the program.

 

[captainjack]

It's absolutely unnecessary to work on hold with anything other than a 2" plastic bumper. You want to make sure the dog will hold a plastic bumper before forcing so that you don't get into a battle when you start forcing and they won't hold.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

x2 what Capt Jack said. Although I use a table. Easier on my back.
http://s868.photobucket.com/user/waynenutt/media/Rowdyforcehold2min.mp4.html
http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...rate)-Transition-to-moving-with-bumper&highlight=Rowdy+(by+Pirate)+hold+minutes

 

[Bracklab]

PDO said it! Everybody has a different situation. The training programs are available so we don't make mistakes that others made before us if possible. There are still 1,000 ways to skin the cat. Read your dog and when you are satisfied with what your dog is telling you she understands than make a judgement call, to move on or not to move on. Good luck!