[c.j.]

I did a drill this morning where you have a half wagon wheel, (back pile, Angle R angle L and a left over and right over.)I had the dog sit in the center of the wagon wheel and I gradually backed up as the drill went on. I was having trouble with him not taking my cast correctly at a distance. needless to say he did not perform like he should for a dog that knows how to take a cast usually.

I think my solution will be to put white stakes out at each pile to give him a visual as to where the pile is. this morning he would give me a right angle and then take of to the over or back pile since he did not see anything towards the right angle.

The only issue with using white stakes is that it becomes too easy for him, he sees the white pole runs directly to it and that's it. Remove the poles and he starts second guessing if he is going in the right direction. how can I simplify this between the white stake drill and the pile with no marker?

I finally just broke down and did T pattern and even then he took an over on a Right back which I have never seen him do. Thoughts?

 

[bamajeff]

What was the distance to the piles from the center of the semi-circle? Did you try handling him to the correct pile when he veered? I wouldn't let him pick up the wrong bumper, and since he's inexperienced, I wouldn't recall him either.

I would also move back in to where he was taking the correct cast, have some success and make sure I didn't try to move back too far too fast. The wagon wheel casting drill is just learning what the casts mean, IMO. The dog learns casting at a distance in pattern blinds/blind drills and progresses as they start running cold blinds.

 

[c.j.]

What was the distance to the piles from the center of the semi-circle? Did you try handling him to the correct pile when he veered? I wouldn't let him pick up the wrong bumper, and since he's inexperienced, I wouldn't recall him either.

I would also move back in to where he was taking the correct cast, have some success and make sure I didn't try to move back too far too fast. The wagon wheel casting drill is just learning what the casts mean, IMO. The dog learns casting at a distance in pattern blinds/blind drills and progresses as they start running cold blinds.

last week the distance was around 25yds and now I stretched it out to around 50. If he took the complete incorrect line I would stop him and either bring him back to the place mat in the middle or handle to the pile depending on the situation. The reason for me bringing him back to the middle was to show him that when I give this cast I want you to run this direction.

 

[bamajeff]

last week the distance was around 25yds and now I stretched it out to around 50. If he took the complete incorrect line I would stop him and either bring him back to the place mat in the middle or handle to the pile depending on the situation. The reason for me bringing him back to the middle was to show him that when I give this cast I want you to run this direction.

I'd be really careful/hesitant to recall a young dog for taking the wrong cast. Can create a lot of no-going or insecurity about taking a cast. Better to handle. If they don't take the correct cast, whistle immediately and cast them to the pile.

 

[DL]

Have you done poison birds on your pattern blind field?

 

[Zach Fisher]

The half wagon wheel is really good IMO at teaching the casts. But when you want to stretch the distance, I would switch to a 3 pile drill. Start close and back up. 3 piles about 12 yards apart. You can start with a front face and cast to each pile. Once he has located the pile you can back up and start lining. They don't need buckets or white poles. They have the confidence that the pile is there.
As you move back, the angle gets tighter between the piles and requires a better line and more accurate casts. If the dog falters, you can do a refresher on the half wagon wheel and then move up on 3 pile.
I modify the 1/2 wagon wheel a little. I have two overs, two angle back and two long bumpers. That way you can get a straight back on each side. I like that the dog has to turn and go past a visible bumper to get a bumper. He has to make the decision to make the right cast.

 

[Windjammer]

The half wagon wheel is really good IMO at teaching the casts. But when you want to stretch the distance, I would switch to a 3 pile drill. Start close and back up. 3 piles about 12 yards apart. You can start with a front face and cast to each pile. Once he has located the pile you can back up and start lining. They don't need buckets or white poles. They have the confidence that the pile is there.
As you move back, the angle gets tighter between the piles and requires a better line and more accurate casts. If the dog falters, you can do a refresher on the half wagon wheel and then move up on 3 pile.
I modify the 1/2 wagon wheel a little. I have two overs, two angle back and two long bumpers. That way you can get a straight back on each side. I like that the dog has to turn and go past a visible bumper to get a bumper. He has to make the decision to make the right cast.

CJ,
I would recommend Zach's method. The three pile drill was developed by Dr. Jack Gwaltney, who is one of the most successful amateur field trial competitors in history. He is so influential, that Mike Lardy actually references him many times in his DVD series. Zach and I both use this method routinely, as does Dr. Gwaltney, even with advanced dogs.

Be careful with doing a single t or double t with a proficient dog, as it can break down their momentum, causing them to pop. Again, I would recommend the three pile drill, as Zach mentioned, or the 1/2 wagon wheel. In fact, you can do both in the same session if you want to add more tasks.

-Mike

 

[KwickLabs]

Rather than search for a different way teach a desired skill, first ask "What is the component that was altered?"
The only factor that changed was distance.

Next question, what impact does distance have on teaching? Distance impacts control.

Solution, don't increase the distance as quickly. Increase the number of correct repetitions by making distance
a non-issue. Moving on rapidly is often slower.

 

[22899]

I did a drill this morning where you have a half wagon wheel, (back pile, Angle R angle L and a left over and right over.)I had the dog sit in the center of the wagon wheel and I gradually backed up as the drill went on. I was having trouble with him not taking my cast correctly at a distance. needless to say he did not perform like he should for a dog that knows how to take a cast usually.

I think my solution will be to put white stakes out at each pile to give him a visual as to where the pile is. this morning he would give me a right angle and then take of to the over or back pile since he did not see anything towards the right angle.

The only issue with using white stakes is that it becomes too easy for him, he sees the white pole runs directly to it and that's it. Remove the poles and he starts second guessing if he is going in the right direction. how can I simplify this between the white stake drill and the pile with no marker?

I finally just broke down and did T pattern and even then he took an over on a Right back which I have never seen him do. Thoughts?

my thoughts are that your last sentence tells you something..

MY OPINION.... I would NOT expect a dog to be ready for the Handling wagon wheel, (even only half of it) till the dog has MASTERED the T and TT.. The dogs work should be solid before moving on..

 

[c.j.]

The half wagon wheel is really good IMO at teaching the casts. But when you want to stretch the distance, I would switch to a 3 pile drill. Start close and back up. 3 piles about 12 yards apart. You can start with a front face and cast to each pile. Once he has located the pile you can back up and start lining. They don't need buckets or white poles. They have the confidence that the pile is there.
As you move back, the angle gets tighter between the piles and requires a better line and more accurate casts. If the dog falters, you can do a refresher on the half wagon wheel and then move up on 3 pile.
I modify the 1/2 wagon wheel a little. I have two overs, two angle back and two long bumpers. That way you can get a straight back on each side. I like that the dog has to turn and go past a visible bumper to get a bumper. He has to make the decision to make the right cast.

so would the three pile drill be a pile directly back and then a pile on the angle right and one on the angle left? start with him facing you and cast to each pile and then run it as pattern blind?

 

[bamajeff]

so would the three pile drill be a pile directly back and then a pile on the angle right and one on the angle left? start with him facing you and cast to each pile and then run it as pattern blind?

I'd mark each pile, line him to each from your side, then do a remote send to all from close distance before increasing difficulty.

 

[Windjammer]

CJ,
The center pile is in line with where you will run the dog. From the center pile, walk roughly 12 yards to the right, and place the bumpers there. Then, from the center pile, walk roughly 12 yards to the left, and place the bumpers there. I put a lining stake about 10 feet behind each pile, so I can clearly see the pile, but that the dog does not have to slam on the brakes before hitting the pile. Essentially, you could run it in any order you want, but I have only seen it done right to left or left to right. To add some variety and line work, you can do left to right with the dog on your left, right to left with the dog on the left. Then, do it with the dog on your right. This is a really good way to teach the dog to move with you, build a solid two sided dog, and teach a good solid line. But for now, I would just run it, as you said, as a pattern blind, although I would not send a dog to the same pile two times in a row (mix up the order). The idea, according to Dr. Gwaltney, is to develop handling, not another force-to-the-pile drill.

Lastly, when starting out, keep the distance short. You can do this same drill at 25 yards, or 200 yards as the dog develops.

 

[captainjack]

I likely missed it, but if your dog normally takes good casts, why were you doing this drill?

 

[Zach Fisher]

so would the three pile drill be a pile directly back and then a pile on the angle right and one on the angle left? start with him facing you and cast to each pile and then run it as pattern blind?

Yep. Dr. Gwaltney runs this with two bumpers on the right pile, 4 in the middle and one on the left.

Cast to the right. Back right, back left, over left.
Back left, back right, over right. And you're done.

Once they can reliably do this, they can be lined to the piles with ease. Then you can begin to back up and line them. Stay in the same spot in the field for a week or so. Just keep getting longer. If you move to a new field, start short and back up. When you get back 150 yards or so, it's a pretty tight drill and the dogs learn very quickly to tighten their lines.

 

[c.j.]

Yep. Dr. Gwaltney runs this with two bumpers on the right pile, 4 in the middle and one on the left.

Cast to the right. Back right, back left, over left.
Back left, back right, over left. And you're done.

Once they can reliably do this, they can be lined to the piles with ease. Then you can begin to back up and line them. Stay in the same spot in the field for a week or so. Just keep getting longer. If you move to a new field, start short and back up. When you get back 150 yards or so, it's a pretty tight drill and the dogs learn very quickly to tighten their lines.

Im not following you on this. Does the drill do angle backs or overs? you said one bumper on the left but sent him over left twice

 

[Windjammer]

I likely missed it, but if your dog normally takes good casts, why were you doing this drill?

CaptainJack,
You can really get some good work out of any dog with this. 12 yards (laterally) on a 200 yard blind is not much, so the precision demands are higher.

 

[Zach Fisher]

Im not following you on this. Does the drill do angle backs or overs? you said one bumper on the left but sent him over left twice

When you start it, it's an over. The dog is front-facing and is very close to the center pile. As you get farther from the piles it becomes and angle back.

A- 1 bumpers B- 4 Bumpers C - 2 Bumpers

C - over right or angle back right
B - Straight back right
B - Straight back left
A- Over left or angle back
B - Straight back left
B - straight back right
A - Over or angle back right

 

[DL]

CaptainJack,
You can really get some good work out of any dog with this. 12 yards (laterally) on a 200 yard blind is not much, so the precision demands are higher.

He meant, why was CJ doing the drill CJ was doing? I increased the distance between the piles when I did mine at a distance. In the beginning for me, it was about changing directions and not about literal casting. I'm not at the literal casting part yet.

 

[Windjammer]

He meant, why was CJ doing the drill CJ was doing? I increased the distance between the piles when I did mine at a distance. In the beginning for me, it was about changing directions and not about literal casting. I'm not at the literal casting part yet.

DL,
The concept is to keep the lateral distance the same between the piles. To make it easier, you decrease the blind distance.

 

[cowdoc87]

When you start it, it's an over. The dog is front-facing and is very close to the center pile. As you get farther from the piles it becomes and angle back.

A- 1 bumpers B- 4 Bumpers C - 2 Bumpers

C - over right or angle back right
B - Straight back right
B - Straight back left
A- Over left or angle back
B - Straight back left
B - straight back right
A - Over or angle back right

Sorry for the dumb question, but to clarify, are you sending the dog from your side toward the center pile every time, stopping him, then casting ?